HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

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oiasghar
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HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by oiasghar »

Ok here is the background on the bike:
2002 R1150R, 10K miles (7K when purchased 8/2007). I kinda noticed this when I got the bike but since most of the ride home was on the freeway (Stillwater, OK to DFW, TX) I did not really pay much attention since it happened only once. A couple of weeks later and set of new tires I started using it for commuting. 3K miles later, and I have enjoyed most of them, I started noticing it more and more. Initially I was just adjusting my riding style to ride around the issue but now I am thinking may be I need to address it.

So here is the issue. When slowing down, shut the throttle, coast for a second or two, pull the clutch in, shift down...oh wait....shifter is stuck solid; no downshift or upshift. Only way to release it is to add some throttle or come to a crawl and then it drops into the lower gear just fine. Now if I pull the clutch in as I am shutting the throttle down and shift down (all at the same time), I have no problem; shifts like butta. If I ride it a bit aggressively it downshifts most of the time ok but quite often it will freeze.

Things I have tried so far to alleviate the problem:
1. Bleed the clutch
2. Completely disassembled and greased the shifter.
3. Changed all fluids since I bought it. Also let the dealer do another transmission fluid change. Done simply so the tech to see if there was any metal in the oil and he did check through the fill and drain holes with a flash light to see if there was any obvious issue. Filled back up with BMW gear oil.

Results: Same sticky shifter.

Took the bike to the local BMW dealers and one said it might be a bent shift fork or scored shift drum. The other told me nothing wrong with the bike and that I am not riding it correctly; clutch is not to be pulled completely and I need to keeps the revs above 4K at all times.

I have searched this forum, advrider, BMW SportTouring and am aware that a sticky shifter may be a sign of spline issues and considering the year and model, I won't be surprised it is. So I have a few decisions to make and wondering if some of you would be kind enough to offer some advice as I really like the bike; waited 8 years and 4 Ducatis, 2 Triumphs and 1 Suzuki and 1 BMW (F650) later, to get my first boxer twin, and would like to keep the bike. So here the options I am looking at:

1. Let the dealer do all the work. Pros: I drop bike off at the dealer with a sticky shifter and hopefully pick one up with no shifting issues. Dealer has full responsibility for fixing it. Cons: 10 hours labor to pull transmission out and put it in. Hourly to fix it + parts. Current estimate is it will be around $2K. Also, once it is opened, I am committed to getting it fixed no matter what the issue since I am already paying for the transmission to come out and be put back in.

2. Pull the transmission out myself and let the dealer fix it. Pros: If I see the splines are the issue, then I can just order a new transmission from ChicagoBMW along with clutch and all and be done with it (Beemerboneyard is the other option). Cons: First, although I have done most maintenance on all my bike and even took one of the Monsters apart and put it back together, I am a bit apprehensive about pulling the transmission out. I already have the BMW service manual and will be getting the Clymer as well. Secondly, if the splines are fine and the issue is within the transmission I know I don't have the skills to fix it. In this case, I will take it in to the dealer. The problem I see here is that they can replace what they see wrong but once back in the bike, if it exhibits the same behavior, I can't really hold the dealer responsible for it like in scenario number one because they have not way to test it on the bike.

Bikes are my primary transportation (have used a cage for commuting only about 10 times in the last 4 years) but I do have the Multistrada and can always steal my wife's car, if I must. But I would like to know what would some of you do in my position? Can I safely continue to ride it until it just breaks? (not sure if like the thought of a transmission locking up on I35W in rush hour) Anything else I can try, short of pulling the transmission, to fix it that I may have missed? Are there other options that I have not considered above? Like I said, I really like the bike and would like to not let it sit in the garage and not be able to ride it.

Sorry the post has gotten a bit long but would really like some feed back, input, suggestions, advice.

Thank you,

Obaid
Last edited by oiasghar on Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by boxermania »

You've done your homework.......

Let's see, have you done the following:
Check the transmission oil level
Checked the plastic bushings that fit on either side of the shift lever, they tend to wear out and affect the shifting
Checked for leaks at the clutch slave cylinder
Checked for a solid pull on the cluth lever

One or all of the above can cause your problem, although, I think that with only 10K miles all of them would be premature. Of course lack of use bears some consideration.

Stepping onto the next level
A bent shift fork or scored drum is a possibility, as per the first BMW dealer, although they are not often seen or reported. I would stay away from the second dealer as his evaluation is way off, specially since the statement
need to keep the revs above 4K at all times
is pure horse manure. I'm also assuming that they llooked and rode the bike, if not, all bets are off.

And now for the last segment
You do have a model year with the propensity of clutch spline failure, I have followed the problem closely and haven't read of any US bike with the problem at such a low mileage, although it has been reported on European bikes, at less mileage than yours. Check page 2 of this thread towards the bottom of the page where you can find a report by yours truly relating to the cluych spline failure.

The spline failure doesn't really affect the shifting, what it ultimately happens is that all the clutch disc teeth will be chewed up and the power transmission from the engine to the tranny will stop....not a problem, if you are leasurely cruising away from traffic, but a potentially dangerous situation if you are on the slab.

In any case, anything related to the tranny I can pretty much sum up as tedious, lengthy and costly if you do it......add double costly if the dealer does it. Not good prospects, however, I would check everything external, as described above before moving to the tranny.

Good luck and keep us posted..... #-o
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by oiasghar »

Forgot to mention that the clutch pull is firm and there are no leaks. Also, the transmission fluid changed once by me when I bought the bike and once a week ago when I took it to one of the dealers that diagnosed it as a bent shift fork. The tech basically rode, took it back and discussed possible issues. He asked me if I saw any metal in the old oil when I changed it. Since I had not, I told him to go ahead and change it again. The oil that came out was clear after 3K of use but he pointed what he said appeared to be aluminum. It looked clear to me but I am not expert. He looked inside the transmission from the drain and fill holes with a flashlight for obvious issues and used a pick to pull what appeared to be pinhead size "something" but did not see anything out of wack. He said there was no blueing of the parts he could see inside. He filled it back up with BMW Synthetic gear oil.

The second dealer did take it for a spin and basically blew it off as me not knowing how to ride it. He mentioned that when I pull the clutch in all the way it is pushing the diaphragm in the wrong direction. Which I thought sounded like you know what...

Sorry I forgot this detail. Its been crazy these past few weeks after I took the bike in to the dealers. I have been somewhat in shock with the price tag of the repair and really bummed out about not being able to ride it with no worries. If I don't have it fixed by June, then I will be going through BR on my way to Navarre Beach on the Multistrada to join family for vacation. I would much rather take the BMW at least I can get 50mpg on the highway and go more than 190 miles on a tank as opposed to the Multi :D
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by MikeCam »

That description of your downshifting technique is the worst technique I have ever heard.

Always be on part throttle, never ride a millisecond with the clutch in, always get into the next gear quickly, match revs, and engage.

One difference in technique might be because your prior experience is with wet clutch, cassette gear box systems. The Boxer is a dry clutch, tractor style gear box. Completely different.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by boxermania »

At this stage and before you get all worked-up you need to explore every opportunity.

MikeCam suggestion is sound.....have you tried it? Likewise I didn't hear you mention about the gearshift bushings, is the lever loose and wobbly?

Your bike has a diaphragm type pressure plate and when they first came out there were issues with over application, as would be with any new technology after it's put to test, but it has been 40 years and by now with computer design I would imagine that precautions have been taken, as far as travel, for what the Tech mentioned not to happen. I haven't verified the travel of the slave cylinder rod relative to the diaphragm, so I'm out on that one. However, regarding never shifting below 4K rpm, he is no correct.

Actually, our bikes shift up and down best if you perform the action with a tiny bit of on throttle.....it takes a little time to learn the technique but the gearbox becomes easier to shift. Based on your prior bike ownership, other than the Suzuki, you didn't have overly easy shifting bikes......too early to give up. :-k :-k
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by Capt. Blackadder »

After reading the above, I can't help but think that the bike is fine. As you've noticed yourself, there's a big difference in "shift quality" when you use different techniques in shifting. This shifting issue has come up quite often on the board, so I took the liberty of copying and pasting a bit from an earlier thread:

When upshifting, I've found that the best technique is:

- to preload the shifter a little bit, i.e. push a little bit up on it
- use only half a clutch while shifting, or even just a quarter...
- ...while simultaneously backing off the throttle just a bit, not close it fully

Doing these three things swiftly and smartly can result in a very smooth shift, and after a while I'll bet you'll be able to pull off silent upshifts time after time. Downshifts are similar, except instead of backing off the throttle you'll blip it, i.e. goose it a bit.

Good luck figuring things out. In your shoes, I would keep experimenting with shifting techniques instead of throwing money at what is probably a non-existent problem. After all, these transmissions are a bit agricultural by design.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by 1WhlDrv »

Put me in the camp with those who don't think you really have a problem. I experienced the same sticking on my first oilhead, but a slight technique change, and Voila!, thousands of trouble-free miles.

When you decelerate in gear (engine brake) you load the gears in the transmission on the back side of the teeth, and they tend to get stuck because of the way they're designed. When you goose the throttle slightly it takes the strain off the teeth and they slip right out like they are suppose to. No fuss, no muss.

Good luck.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by oiasghar »

Just a quick note, I don't really ride the bike with the clutch in a lot just when you are coming to a stop. If I am in lets say 4th, I will roll of the gas and start slowing down. Once the revs are a bit low, I just pull the clutch in and yes the rest is coasting to a stop and going down the gears. If I actually have to shift and ride in a lower gear, I always blip the throttle and match then revs but it is sometimes getting to that step because of the sticky shifter which only happens if I am going down the gears lazily. Like I said earlier, if I ride it a bit aggressively, it shifts really nice.

Anyway, it looks like I should attempt to ride around it as it is possible and not worry about it.

Thank you all for your responses. It is really nice to get input from fellow owners. I am already feeling better about it. Not sure why I did not ask this question earlier.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by oiasghar »

boxermania wrote:Likewise I didn't hear you mention about the gearshift bushings, is the lever loose and wobbly?
The gear shift lever bushing appeared to be fine. There is just a very slight side to side movement in the lever. Not really wobbly. Is there supposed to be no sideways movement in it?
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by bransan »

oiasghar wrote:Just a quick note, I don't really ride the bike with the clutch in a lot just when you are coming to a stop. If I am in lets say 4th, I will roll of the gas and start slowing down. Once the revs are a bit low, I just pull the clutch in and yes the rest is coasting to a stop and going down the gears. If I actually have to shift and ride in a lower gear, I always blip the throttle and match then revs but it is sometimes getting to that step because of the sticky shifter which only happens if I am going down the gears lazily. Like I said earlier, if I ride it a bit aggressively, it shifts really nice.

Anyway, it looks like I should attempt to ride around it as it is possible and not worry about it.

Thank you all for your responses. It is really nice to get input from fellow owners. I am already feeling better about it. Not sure why I did not ask this question earlier.

I think Your on the right track, these gearboxes are cluncky compared to most other transmissions. When approaching a stop You should be downshifting,( imo), I have been driving manual transmission BMW's for most of My driving life. I have achieved very high mileage with very few problems. Downshifting is an integral part of slowing down.

However I have to note, when You are at a stop and go to put it in gear, it is not uncommon to have to slightly release the clutch to align the gears. This holds true for most machine that have a manual transmission.


In closing, there is nothing wrong with Your bike, it's shifting technique. I would suggest You downshift aleast to 2nd or 3rd before You hold in the clutch and roll to a stop. Just before completely stopping shift to neutral. LOL
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by Airman »

bransan wrote:
oiasghar wrote:Just a quick note, I don't really ride the bike with the clutch in a lot just when you are coming to a stop. If I am in lets say 4th, I will roll of the gas and start slowing down. Once the revs are a bit low, I just pull the clutch in and yes the rest is coasting to a stop and going down the gears. If I actually have to shift and ride in a lower gear, I always blip the throttle and match then revs but it is sometimes getting to that step because of the sticky shifter which only happens if I am going down the gears lazily. Like I said earlier, if I ride it a bit aggressively, it shifts really nice.

Anyway, it looks like I should attempt to ride around it as it is possible and not worry about it.

Thank you all for your responses. It is really nice to get input from fellow owners. I am already feeling better about it. Not sure why I did not ask this question earlier.

I think Your on the right track, these gearboxes are cluncky compared to most other transmissions. When approaching a stop You should be downshifting,( imo), I have been driving manual transmission BMW's for most of My driving life. I have achieved very high mileage with very few problems. Downshifting is an integral part of slowing down.

However I have to note, when You are at a stop and go to put it in gear, it is not uncommon to have to slightly release the clutch to align the gears. This holds true for most machine that have a manual transmission.


In closing, there is nothing wrong with Your bike, it's shifting technique. I would suggest You downshift aleast to 2nd or 3rd before You hold in the clutch and roll to a stop. Just before completely stopping shift to neutral. LOL
I don't actually understand some of this advice. I shift my bike pretty much any way I like. I've never had the shifter stick like that. I sometimes fly off the freeway, pull the clutch in and glide up to the stop sign and then clack down five gears at a stop. No downshifting, no rev matching. I never knew any of that was an issue. The only thing different about this transmission that I've noted is that it likes a preload on the shifter when up shiftng. Shift into neutral when coming to a stop ? Not me. There are people on cell phones behind me that aren't going to stop, and I need to be ready for a fast getaway. I have noticed the gear alignment thing when sitting in neutral with the engine running. It wants a little clutch to drop into 1st. I was going to suggest that oiasghar go have a look on ADVRider.com for the spline issues, but my knowedge of the area was too limited to know if this was even related to the splines. There is some real good pictures and text on trans removal, spline inspection over there. I hope I never have to do that.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by Arbreacames »

I agree with Airman: I have never had the shifter stick like that either. Plus, there is nothing wrong with "shut throttle/ slow down/ pull the clutch/ shift down". (MikeCam took "coast" to mean riding with clutch pulled).

I am still concerned about the clutch splines. When they are worn out, the clutch disk can stick on the axle and make downshifting difficult. On the other hand, wouldn't a sticking clutch give the impression of trying to shift without a clutch rather than a stuck shifter? (shifter has normal stiffness but doesn't engage gear as opposed to a frozen shifter)
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by Airman »

Arbreacames wrote:I agree with Airman: I have never had the shifter stick like that either. Plus, there is nothing wrong with "shut throttle/ slow down/ pull the clutch/ shift down". (MikeCam took "coast" to mean riding with clutch pulled).

I am still concerned about the clutch splines. When they are worn out, the clutch disk can stick on the axle and make downshifting difficult. On the other hand, wouldn't a sticking clutch give the impression of trying to shift without a clutch rather than a stuck shifter? (shifter has normal stiffness but doesn't engage gear as opposed to a frozen shifter)
Right. I do exactly what Oiasghar says he's doing. I drop off the freeway in sixth let it compression brake for a hundred yards or so, pull the clutch in and coast to the stop sign. Usually just short of the stop I'll hit the shifter five times to get into first. Or some variation of that. I shift down sometimes too. My point is that rolling into the stop with the clutch in won't lock up the shifter, in fact, I've never had the shifter lock up at all. If it came to it, I saw one of the lads on ADVRider yank the final drive and transmission out as a unit, something that evidently was not commonly done. I think whan you reach this stage of troubleshooting/disassembly most people want to look at the transmission output splines as well.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by bransan »

Airman wrote:
bransan wrote:
oiasghar wrote:Just a quick note, I don't really ride the bike with the clutch in a lot just when you are coming to a stop. If I am in lets say 4th, I will roll of the gas and start slowing down. Once the revs are a bit low, I just pull the clutch in and yes the rest is coasting to a stop and going down the gears. If I actually have to shift and ride in a lower gear, I always blip the throttle and match then revs but it is sometimes getting to that step because of the sticky shifter which only happens if I am going down the gears lazily. Like I said earlier, if I ride it a bit aggressively, it shifts really nice.

Anyway, it looks like I should attempt to ride around it as it is possible and not worry about it.

Thank you all for your responses. It is really nice to get input from fellow owners. I am already feeling better about it. Not sure why I did not ask this question earlier.

I think Your on the right track, these gearboxes are cluncky compared to most other transmissions. When approaching a stop You should be downshifting,( imo), I have been driving manual transmission BMW's for most of My driving life. I have achieved very high mileage with very few problems. Downshifting is an integral part of slowing down.

However I have to note, when You are at a stop and go to put it in gear, it is not uncommon to have to slightly release the clutch to align the gears. This holds true for most machine that have a manual transmission.


In closing, there is nothing wrong with Your bike, it's shifting technique. I would suggest You downshift aleast to 2nd or 3rd before You hold in the clutch and roll to a stop. Just before completely stopping shift to neutral. LOL
I don't actually understand some of this advice. I shift my bike pretty much any way I like. I've never had the shifter stick like that. I sometimes fly off the freeway, pull the clutch in and glide up to the stop sign and then clack down five gears at a stop. No downshifting, no rev matching. I never knew any of that was an issue. The only thing different about this transmission that I've noted is that it likes a preload on the shifter when up shiftng. Shift into neutral when coming to a stop ? Not me. There are people on cell phones behind me that aren't going to stop, and I need to be ready for a fast getaway. I have noticed the gear alignment thing when sitting in neutral with the engine running. It wants a little clutch to drop into 1st. I was going to suggest that oiasghar go have a look on ADVRider.com for the spline issues, but my knowedge of the area was too limited to know if this was even related to the splines. There is some real good pictures and text on trans removal, spline inspection over there. I hope I never have to do that.


I have noticed the gear alignment thing when sitting in neutral with the engine running.



Airman I think that is the issue oisghar has been experiencing, If I'm wrong please correct Me. I live and ride in an extremely, rural area. I do however travel through major metro areas and am very cautious of cell phoners.


I have been riding BMW's for a long time, almost every other rider I have talked to has experienced it a time or two.

Just trying to be helpful, suggestive, etc.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by Arbreacames »

I'm not sure that was very helpful, but it is definitely suggestive. :-k
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by Lobo1625 »

Obaid and I got together on Sunday and swapped rides for about an hour. I will say the issue he is having with his bike is a unique one for sure. I only could replicate it when I made sure to do things in a certain sequence. First was to engine brake for a short while then clutch in and hold it in for about a second or two. When you tried to down shift after this, sometimes the shifter would be much harder than usual. This didn't always work but I would imagine it could catch you off guard. He, on the other hand couldn't get my RR to do it at all. Same 2002 bikes, less than 100 apart according to the VIN with less than 3k miles difference on the odo. The *ONLY* difference was the transmission fluid in his bike was a synthetic and mine is conventional. I didn't and still don't see it as a reason to stop riding the bike or to put it in the shop. I would be interested to look at the clutch splines to see if they are worn but I don't see that as a failure point at this time. I'm considering a Harbor Freight Bore Scope to check out the splines, but I'm not 100% sure that I could see them thru the starter opening. If anyone has any input on checking splines with the transmission on the bike let me know, as I know 2002 is a 'prone' year to spline issues. As stated with Obaid's bike, a riding style adjustment may make the issue much less noticeable, but under the right circumstances could 'surprise' you. Over the next few weeks I think we're going to check some other things on the bike to see what might be causing this hang in the shifting. Any suggestions are welcome as both of us are slightly worried about the splines on our bike and would like to make sure we don't fall victim to a spline failure at an inopportune time.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by Arbreacames »

Spline wear is measurable without disassembly of the transmission. You only need to remove the starter (watch for the hot cable!) and measure the amount of free-play of the clutch disk on its axle. I think that if you bungee-wrap you clutch lever, you should be able to rotate the clutch disk without moving the transmission input shaft.
Once you are in there, you might try to push some Moly paste into the splines. With the clutch lever still pulled, you can push the clutch an additional 1-2 mm or so with a big screwdriver. That should expose about 2 mm of splines where you can push some grease with a needle. I recommend Honda Moly 60 paste (about $10). If the grease reduces the stickiness, you have located the problem.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by MikeCam »

Carlos,

While I defer to both you and Boxermania on diagnosis of the mechanicals, on this one I am getting the twitchy antenna of shift fork misalignment. How does that concept fit the overall symptoms for this rider?
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by Arbreacames »

You are probably right: the spline wear would not make the shifter feel as if it's stuck.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Post by boxermania »

I never saw the need to do what Carlos recomends. Knowing Carlos, I have to assume that he went through the motions. One thing that I can say for sure is that with reasonably good splines (clutch disc and tranny input shaft) the back and forth movement of the disc relative to the shaft is very small and if you haven't "felt" the relative movement it maybe dificult to make a determination between a good and a bad set-up.......... :-k :-k
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