HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Topics related to the ownership, maintenance, equipping, operation, and riding of the R1150R.

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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby Arbreacames » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:51 pm

Obaid and Lobo have identical bikes and identical concerns. I was suggesting that before investing in a $250 bore scope, they might compare the free play (rotational) in their clutches. I haven't done it but I have read about it elsewhere. I even seem to recall people discussing values for the amount of play that they were getting before and after a repair of the splines.

Nevertheless, I think MikeCam might be right on this one.
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Re: Potential issue transmission '02 R1150R

Postby sweatmark » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:31 am

This "stuck shifter" problem sounds a bit like our experience with a 2001 R1100R. Shifting in the 1st-2nd-3rd range was sometimes a problem. Showing the transmission who's boss with a heavy toe and very deliberate shifting action was the way to stay out of trouble. Seems this behavior was a known problem with certain R1100* models, for which there were 3 different versions of Getrag transmission:

http://www.largiader.com/tech/oiltrans/

Big question is whether or not the potential problem with the older 5-speed transmissions might have been inherited by later 6-speed units. Seems this is one of the first instances recorded here on the R1150R board.

Hope your issue is resolved.

<edit> see this also:
http://www.bmwsporttouring.com/faq/tran ... issues.htm
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby Airman » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:51 am

I don't get caught in the rain, I ride in it on purpose.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby Lobo1625 » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm

Airman,
Great find, that answers some questions we had about the bike. From what Obaid told me, however he pulled the starter off and the splines looked fine. It's hard to know exactly what the cause might be, but this is certainly something to look for..
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby boxermania » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:54 pm

Gentlemen

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, as I don't think anyone can validate the condition of their tranny input shaft splines or for that matter the ones on the clutch disc, without removal of the tranny.

Let me alert you to the fact that the tranny splines are totally enclosed by the clutch disc splines and there is no way to see the condition of either. On the other hand, someone could respond that by activating the clutch lever the disc would move on the shaft a sufficient amount to be able to see the splines......not so as releasing the diaphragm will allow the disc to separate from the flywheel by .100 or so, still not sufficient to ascertain the condition of the engaged splines.

What I think the owners are looking at the splines on the input shaft between the back end of the clutch disc and the front of the gearbox. These splines never engage the clutch disc so they will look OK.

On the other hand, I think that one might be able to get an idea if one can detect rotational movement between the two with the clutch lever depressed.....a couple of caveats....one, you would have had to "feel" a new vs a worn set to determine the amount of rotational movement.....the other is that the gearbox has to be in gear to hold the tranny input shaft steady and even in that case there will be some movement of the shaft as the backlash of the tranny internal gear will have to be taken up in both directions.

Yes, if you can't visualize what I'm talking about you will probably end with a migraine......the spline problem is a royal pain in the arse.....period.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby boxermania » Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:01 pm

Lobo 1625

The originator of this post might be experiencing the pre-spline failure syndrome and lives in Keller, TX. Is that far from your place? that might prove to be the donor bike.....just a thought...... :-k :-k
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby oiasghar » Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:26 pm

Sorry have not posted back here in a while regarding the status of the transmission. As Dino indicated, I checked the splines from the starter area. I know this may be not be the ideal method but I was able to push the clutch disk forward by about 1 ~ 2 mm (or so it seemed like) with a tool of sufficient leverage and what additional spline area that was exposed looked ok. Also, there was very little play (to the naked eye) between when the input shaft moved and when the clutch disk moved. It was almost instantaneous.

By the way I am having the bike checked (test ride) by an independent place on Friday and see what they say.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby oiasghar » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:40 pm

Well a huge thanks to Dino (Lobo1625) for helping me tear the bike down today. We got the transmission out and found this:

Image

The clutch splines are pretty much toast in just 10,800 miles. They were completely dry and cleaning them with a pick revealed quite a bit of metal that had attached itself to the splines.

On the other hand the splines on the transmission have some wear but not bad at all

Image

Dino is going to get some tools tomorrow and take some measurements before we replace the clutch out. I know many believe that will not solve anything and it may not. But for now the bike will be rideable for perhaps another 10K. I am hoping to take it apart again in 10K and see if it is as bad as it is right now and if it is then I will deal with it then. For now a new clutch is all its going to be. If in another 10K it looks to be wearing okay then it may be the original clutch or assembly of it to blame for this near failure.

I am hoping Dino and Boxermania can figure this one out as it appears to be an issue with more than a hand full of bikes, or so it seems.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby Lobo1625 » Thu May 01, 2008 9:35 am

Some more fuel to the fire. After breaking out the caliper and dial indicators, and a long conversation with Boxermania, Obaid and I took some measurements on his bike's clutch. The first measurement we took was the concentricity. The dial indicator was hard mounted to the engine and we took the measurement off the center hub of the clutch. Total run-out was a mere .005" Far less than I expected seeing how worn the clutch actually was. We did several revolutions of the motor just to check and, while the clutch was obviously off center, it was to the bottom side, as I expected due to wear and gravity... We also took measurements on the face of the clutch disk and it's total run-out was also about .005" Again nothing I would consider excessive. I took a measurement at the edge of the flywheel next to the teeth which returned a reading of .015" I know some of this was due to the part numbers so This was a difficult reading to achieve. Wear on the teeth of the flywheel seemed even and consistent around the entire perimeter. We also, using a magnetic base, took a reading from the flywheel to the engine case/transmission mounting surface. In the areas I could indicate off of, the total run-out was an almost unnoticeable .001" The last measurement was off the nose of the input shaft on the transmission. Again .001" maybe. There was no way to accurately measure the 'out of round' of the input shaft since it is splined.

The findings yesterday, point in my mind to lack of quality materials, not machining discrepancies or misalignment. There was also a notable lack of spline lube on the bike when we first disassembled it. Looking at and comparing the parts that Boxermania sent me from a previous 1150 clutch spline failure, I noticed two things.

First: the clutch wear is identical (pattern, shape, length) for both bikes. This tells us that while it is a failure the conditions causing this are the same. This helps to eliminate riding style, climate, helmet color :lol: and many other variables.

Second: the clutch spline length on the flywheel and shaft are the same.. ~24mm (.945") in length The problem is that the clutch disk sits roughly 7mm (.275") further forward. This leaves only 15mm-17mm of spline actually engaged.

While I don't have readings yet on hardness of the two parts, I should by next week. I've got a shop that has agreed to help with those readings and that along will shed much more light on the subject.

With the recent revelations I am starting to believe that a much more economical solution would be an improved clutch disk rather than an upgraded shaft. I've started discussions with a manufacturer to see if they can produce a clutch disk for the bikes that allows more engagement to the transmission. Also a center section that is hardened more to prevent some wear. I'll make sure and post back when I get any updates.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby sweatmark » Thu May 01, 2008 1:36 pm

Lobo- Many thanks for your efforts. These are significant findings.

The alternative clutch option is great idea. Just pondering: perhaps produce just the central splined clutch part, for retrofitting the Sachs part if the OE clutch is somehow odd-sized? Or adding dampening springs to a new clutch disc design for reduction of shock load to the splines?

And there's gotta be a way to change the clutch actuating rod such that a pilot bearing/bushing could be used.

New theory re: why this spline failure problem affects only a small minority... yes, you guessed it: kill switch.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby Lobo1625 » Thu May 01, 2008 1:48 pm

Sweatmark,
Both good suggestions and I've mentioned them to the clutch manufacturer I've been talking with. The springs might help, but I don't think there's enough clearance inside the pressure plate to do so. I'll do some more looking when I go over to Obaid's this weekend. As for the center hub retrofit, this was my first idea, and may be the only solution as the size of the disk is quite small, smaller than all automotive applications. I'll have some info from the manufacturer soon and post back with possible options.

Regarding the pilot bearing, the clutch release 'fingers' on the pressure plate are in between the input shaft and the flywheel. This prevents any type of pilot bearing for supporting the nose of the input shaft. It would take an entirely new clutch/pressure plate/flywheel/throwout bearing assembly to accomplish that kind of support. We've got the cards dealt to us and need to make the best of it with the resources we have.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby sweatmark » Thu May 01, 2008 4:48 pm

Lobo-

My thought re: the clutch operating rod & pilot bearing/bushing is only valid if

(1) existing rod has a stepped portion that contacts the clutch spring fingers at shoulder of larger diameter step;

(2) when fingers are fully depressed, there remains some small residual opening at center of the diaphragm to allow an extended actuating rod to "reach" across gap and insert into the crankshaft end;

(3) and there's some void in the crankshaft end to allow fitment of pilot bearing or bushing.

Oh, and (4) the stroke of the clutch actuating rod must not exceed available depth of hoped-for recess at end of crankshaft.

How's that for wishful thinking?!

Your findings of clutch friction disc hub spine wear sure opens some doors to potential investigation and solution. For instance, what's to say that the clutch disc assembly isn't always perfect, e.g. the hub is skewed when riveted to the friction material carrier? And what about the circumstances for which drivetrain shock-loading are potentially most severe, given the absence of dampening springs in the clutch disc? I know I'm guilty of one behavior that causes drivetrain shock-loading, even if very slight: turning off motor, placing bike in 1st gear, closing clutch, and letting bike roll backwards that small bit until <clunk> you're parked when on an uphill grade.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby oiasghar » Sun May 04, 2008 10:41 am

Well it is all back together. A huge thanks to Lobo1625 (Dino) for helping me put the new clutch in and get the bike back together. It was getting dark so I just took it for a quick spin down the street and it now "shifts like butta!!!' I now have peace of mind that my splines are good. Lobo pointed out something that was quite interesting when we were comparing the old and the new clutch; the part numbers are different. He noticed the same thing on the clutch that boxermania sent him. Makes you wonder why the difference. They look to be identical. Oh well.
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Re: HELP!!! Potential issue with transmission; 02 R1150R

Postby LeeH » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:06 pm

I'd like to thank Capt Blackadder for his advice on how to shift a BMW. I doubt I would have ever discovered it on my own and it worked a treat for me :D
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