2010 R12R - 12,000 mi service @ dealer

[Jed]

I'm getting pressure from my local dealer to have the 12,000 mi service done by a BMW dealer - or suffer the wrath of BMW when or if I ever have a warranty claim. My bike has the service reminder counting down to 12,000 mi as we speak. I also have a local independent BMW service guy very close to me (former service manager at the same dealership). All of which leads me to pose the following issues for your comments.

1) The dealer is claiming that having the regular PM services done anywhere other than a BMW dealer can put my warranty at risk.

2) The dealer says that they cannot (will not) clear a service code if they don't do the service work.

3) The local mechanic can do the work for less and will let me assist (watch?) so that I can do much of this work myself in the future. As you can imagine, this opportunity amounts to nearly free instruction on servicing my R12R for less money than the dealer would charge for the same work. In addition the quality from the local guy is top-notch - not just in my opinion (because I know so little) but rather by consensus in this area.

4) I want to use the local guy so that I can learn how to keep my R12R not just "in spec" but in perfect running condition at all times - purring like a kitten as it were. I want to be an active, engaged owner of my machine - not just the guy that puts the miles on the odo.

So those are the facts. I look forward to your ideas and comments.

cheers,

Jed

[dbrick]

Jed,

The federal law which regulates motor vehicle warranties prohibits a manufacturer from requiring service to be done by a dealer. However, if the service is done independently, there's an easy opportunity for a manufacturer or dealer to deny a future warranty claim: "Who knows who did the work, and it wasn't done properly. This misdone work caused the failure, so we won't warranty it."

In making such a denial, the dealer and manufacturer might be right (the independent work caused the failure), or might be wrong (the independent work didn't cause the failure). BUT: even if the dealer is wrong, the dealer holds the better cards: if a claim for warranty work is denied, the customer has no legal recourse except to sue, which often requires an atty, which will cost money. Even if the denial is not factually correct, it's a PITA of the first order to address.

Many of us chose to eliminate this risk of denial by having service within the warranty period done by a dealer. Your risk tolerance may vary.

[tinytrains]

As stated above, you have the right to do your own maintenance. The flip side is you may have to be to prove (possibly in court if you sue them) that you did all the required work if a major warranty issue comes up. BWM is known for trying to weasel out of repairs. As I understand it, both the dealer and BMW have to agree to cover a major warranty repair. So if you want to do it your self, find a dealer that will support you. There are many out there. Your dealer has made it clear he will not. As for not resetting the service reminder, that is just ridiculous. People here have it done all the time.

Personally, other than the initial service, I have done ALL the work on my K75. I never had a problem with warranty coverage, but I also never had a major engine problem. On my R12, I have been letting the dealer do it since it is reasonably cheap and only once a year. Once the warranty is up, I will get a GS911 dongle and do it all my self.

Scott

[websterize]

What an opportunity. Why not buy the parts and supplies from the dealer, learn from the local mechanic and keep the receipts/paperwork in case there's a warranty issue?

[Ric]

Scott above is correct, this dealer you are going to does not have your best interest in mind, only his own and he will go to every extreme (as he is now) to screw you all the way to the bank. Find another dealer.

My dealer in Chatanooga Tn (Pandoras Motorsports) are great folks. They will stamp my manual and reset my computer if i do my work. They only ask, since they would be handling any warranty issues, that I give them the opportunity to do half the prescribed service intervals. I think thats only fair if i want them to back me up with the mfg when and if i have a problem.

[tobes]

I've done my own maintenance staring with the 24K service - have done the 24K and 30K so far. For the 24K I documented as much as I could with photos in case something happened and I needed to submit a warranty claim. So far nothing's happened except a great running bike and me saving a ton of $$. Both my local dealers will reset service light and check for codes, for a nominal $, without doing the service. My dealer in Ventura actually hold classes on how to service your bike. It sounds like you need to find another dealer.

[dav]

Mate, your local mechanic sounds like a top notch chap, stick with him & if something does show its ugly head on your R1200R speak to your mechanic, as you said he was the service manager for 'that' dealer so he would know all the 'tricks of the trade' to handle these issue's.

[deilenberger]

I'd be looking for a new dealer. None of the dealers in NJ fed that line of BS to me.. I did buy ALL BMW parts (oil, filters, etc.) and keep the receipts. I then did all my own service, except the 600 mile service. The dealers didn't have a problem with that and warranty (for what little warranty stuff I had done.)

Also the aftermarket extended warranty I got (Contigo-Direct, with a discount via the MOA..) has a specific clause in their contracts that it IS OK for the owner to to their own maintenance, as long as the schedules follow the manufacturer's schedule, and they suggest keeping the parts receipts as proof of service.

[DeltaDagger]

I'm kinda on an island here. The dealer I bought my bike from closed. I have been doing all of my own maint. including the 600 mi. I bought a factory Svc. manual and save any and all reciepts for consumeables as well as special tools (feeler gauges, oil filter wrench, coil removal tool, manual, etc...) The nearest dealer is 2Hrs away so if I have any warranty issues, I'll likely have to trailer it there. A GS911 is in my future as well. I remember reading something in the OM that maintenance does not need to be done by the dealer. I'm sure that if something went wrong with something to do with a maint item, for example a valve adjuster broke or came loose and hammered something, BMW would try to squirm out of it. I'd like to think if it were something unrelated, like a sensor, or a faulty seal, they would step up and take care of it.
Did I mention that I love this bike?

[BigEasy]

I'm kinda on an island here. The dealer I bought my bike from closed. I have been doing all of my own maint. including the 600 mi. I bought a factory Svc. manual and save any and all reciepts for consumeables as well as special tools (feeler gauges, oil filter wrench, coil removal tool, manual, etc...) The nearest dealer is 2Hrs away so if I have any warranty issues, I'll likely have to trailer it there. A GS911 is in my future as well. I remember reading something in the OM that maintenance does not need to be done by the dealer. I'm sure that if something went wrong with something to do with a maint item, for example a valve adjuster broke or came loose and hammered something, BMW would try to squirm out of it. I'd like to think if it were something unrelated, like a sensor, or a faulty seal, they would step up and take care of it.
Did I mention that I love this bike?

Did you buy yours at Twin City over in Chambana? That's where I got mine and was severly bummed when they closed, and they were 3 hours away from me. If your 2 hour away dealer is Falcone in Indy be aware: they're great guys. You're not gonna get a deal out of them but they treat you fair and nicely. I'm only in there 2-3 times a year just to snoop around and all the BMW guys remember me by name.

Sorry for the thread jack, carry on

[Lost Rider]

Find a new dealer and tell the one you're at to kiss your a$$.
First, in order to deny warranty coverage they would have to prove that your work could have caused the problem. In other words if you change all your fluids, then you have an electrical problem, they can't deny you coverage.
If you have receipts from the parts/fluids that would be enough to prove you did the maintenance in case you had issues down the road.
I have done 80% of my own maintenance on both my bikes that are far out of warranty now. On my GS I've had many problems, including recently having the engine almost rebuilt where BMW NA stepped up and covered $2000 in parts, after I'm out of warranty, and with no real record of service for the bike. (it's hard to keep receipts when traveling)

Your dealer is trying to scare you into giving them money for work that just about anyone can do themselves. It's one thing to offer great service, it's another to pull that crap.
Not only is it unethical, it might even be illegal for them to do so.
Maybe report them to the better business bureau.
Take your business elsewhere, tell the new one why you're coming to their dealership, usually when dealing with a bad dealer, the ones around it are very aware and take great pride in not being like them.... like all dealers around Chicago, who know Chicago BMW service sucks!

Stick with the local independent mechanic, learn how to do it yourself, and find somewhere else to buy your parts...

[ContraMoto]

In Cali, we have a state agency called the Bureau of Auto Repair. The BAR out here follows up on such things. I know this because I once owned a few brake shops and the BAR guy would show up in person to follow up on every single compaint. Including the one where a lady said that, when she fell asleep in our lobby, we switched the tires on her car to another brand. When she fell asleep, she had Michelins and when she woke up they were Goodyears.

If you have a similar agency in your state, file a complaint right away.

[dbrick]

First, in order to deny warranty coverage they would have to prove that your work could have caused the problem. In other words if you change all your fluids, then you have an electrical problem, they can't deny you coverage. If you have receipts from the parts/fluids that would be enough to prove you did the maintenance in case you had issues down the road.

I may be that I'm unusually risk-averse for a rider, or I may live too close to dealerships, or it might be because I'm an atty, but both of the underlined statements are wrong. The first is misleading or actually false because (at least before one gets into litigation) the dealer doesn't have to prove anything; the second is false because a dealer and BMWNA can deny coverage: they may be wrong engineering-wise, but they can do it. My experience is personal: I have represented individuals, and I have represented dealers.

Yes, the Magnusson-Moss Act requires warranty coverage if the required maintenance is done, without regard to who did it. Yes, if you work on the electrical system, it's hard to see how a bad wheel bearing warranty claim might be refused.

In some cases, 'tho, the facts aren't clear (for instance, the owner has no receipts or records of the word done) or the causation is murky (for instance, if you were to install barbacks, and the throttle cable thereafter fractured at the twist grip end, did moving the bars aft cause an increased angle on the cable which in turn caused the cable to fatigue and break?). It's these unclear areas where parties disagree, and claims are denied.

It may be that you're covered, and an engineering examination of the failure would support your assertion. However, the dealer isn't going to hire the engineer to satisfy you. What the dealer and BMWNA will do depends on the facts of the particular claim, and to some extent the dealer's willingness to go to bat for you. If they deny the claim, you're on your own: the bike isn't repaired. If you want it repaired, you must either pay for the repair or do it yourself. If you want to wrestle about warranty coverage, the dealer doesn't have to do anything: you need to pay to hire an atty and maybe an engineer to push back. If they've denied the claim wrongly, and you win in court, you can get damages. Doing so will have cost time, money, and attention. And, of course, there are no certainties in an litigation - you might lose, because courts aren't perfect.

I'm not saying "Don't do it yourself." I'm saying "Just because you have a warranty and M-M says the warranty doesn't depend on who did the maintenance, you'll automatically and easily prevail." Your choices during the warranty period should depend on your risk tolerance, your distance from help, your ability to do or secure work on your bike, and the depth of your wallet. Those factors (maybe there are others I've missed) can create a different calculus for each of us.

[Lost Rider]

Good thing we have you here to give us free legal advice, too bad it doesn't really sound like you're saying anything at all about the original question, but you needed to say it anyways.
Maybe this, maybe that. So what's you point? That I'm wrong and they have to honor a warranty regardless of who did the maintenance is the only definitive statements I can see.
Typical lawyer speak IMO.

I'm sure you can waist your billable time on a little motorcycle forum to try and prove me wrong, but it's my understanding a warranty is like a contract, and in the real world vs. on paper legal world, as long as you have your parts receipts for your maintenance, you should have no problem getting any warranty work done by a dealer, unless it's obvious your actions caused the warranty claim.
BMW NA has proven to me many times it's willingness to support it's customer's reasonable warranty claims, without lawyers, or even maintenance receipts.


Back to the OP:
Forget all the internet advice.... maybe you should ask the dealer in question to show the fine print in the warranty that supports their claim that if you don't have them do all the maintenance that you will be denied warranty work in the future?.... Or call BMW NA customer service and ask them, then go talk to that dealer?...
BMW NA Customer Relations: 1-800-831-1117

[dbrick]

Good thing we have you here to give us free legal advice, too bad it doesn't really sound like you're saying anything at all about the original question, but you needed to say it anyways.
Maybe this, maybe that. So what's you point? That I'm wrong and they have to honor a warranty regardless of who did the maintenance is the only definitive statements I can see.
Typical lawyer speak IMO.

My, we're a bit sensitive.

I didn't say or imply that you were wrong. You're not - you're perfectly right..for you. My point was that what's right for one may not be right for another. Is there room in your universe for folks to differ with you?

I'm sure you can waist your billable time

Billable time? On Saturday? Not this guy.

...on a little motorcycle forum to try and prove me wrong, but it's my understanding a warranty is like a contract, and in the real world vs. on paper legal world, as long as you have your parts receipts for your maintenance, you should have no problem getting any warranty work done by a dealer, unless it's obvious your actions caused the warranty claim. BMW NA has proven to me many times it's willingness to support it's customer's reasonable warranty claims, without lawyers, or even maintenance receipts.

A warranty is indeed a contract, and one should have no problem enforcing it. BMWNA does behave reasonably...most of the time. But they - and other manufacturers and importers - haven't been reasonable in all cases, and there will be cases where folks differ on what's reasonable. If everyone were as reasonable as you are, I'm sure there'd be no problems at all.

[Lost Rider]

I didn't say or imply that you were wrong. You're not - you're perfectly right..for you. My point was that what's right for one may not be right for another. Is there room in your universe for folks to differ with you?

it might be because I'm an atty, but both of the underlined statements are wrong. The first is misleading or actually false because the dealer doesn't have to prove anything; the second is false because a dealer and BMWNA can deny coverage: they may be wrong engineering-wise, but they can do it.

Yes, the Magnusson-Moss Act requires warranty coverage if the required maintenance is done, without regard to who did it.

Exactly my point about lawyers speaking.
So which one is it?

[dbrick]

Your conclusion (do it yourself) was quite correct...for you.
The premises you used to support that conclusion were wrong.

[Lost Rider]

Your conclusion (do it yourself) was quite correct...for you.
The premises you used to support that conclusion were wrong.

OK, glad we got that sorted out, have a great weekend!

[dbrick]

You too.

[deilenberger]

Hey Joe,

I believe what David said is - and IMHO he's absolutely correct (I've seen it happen) - is BMW can deny warranty. It's simple - they just do it. (See my footnote on how this happens.)

In that case the bike's owner has to prove BMW's denial is wrong. The burden of proof is on the owner. It can be costly and drawn-out to make that proof. And even then - it may not hold up since it requires a lawsuit to prove it, and what's right doesn't always win. It's possible you might collect damages (loss of use of the bike, expenses involved in the lawsuit), but don't count on it. There is no Magnusson-Moss enforcement agency in the government that is going to come to the owner's aid. It was a court decision, it's not a government "policy", and no agency is in charge of it.

So - the real question is - how to avoid this?

1 - Suck up and pay for all service under warranty. That's the absolutely safe way. That way BMW and the dealer has no grounds for denial. It's certainly not an ideal way, but it IS the sure way. That's what this dealer is trying to force the OP to do.

2 - Buy BMW parts and supplies for the services while under warranty, and keep careful records of what service you did. Do the services by the book. That's the route I've taken. Due to having a friendly relationship with a reasonable dealer - there has never been a question on my warranty coverage. In this case - it appears the OP has one factor missing from this equation - a reasonable dealer. If there is another dealer that can be used that's who I'd be taking my business to - and I'd make sure they know you're buying ALL your parts from them. That helps two ways - they can justify in their minds helping you out if there is a warranty problem since you have made them some money; the records of the parts/supplies purchases establishes at least the assumption that you used them to service the bike in question. The parts may cost more then you'd pay on line - but that trivial amount is WAY less then fighting a warranty denial would cost you (and you help keep that dealer in business so they might be there IF you need warranty coverage.)

3 - Go to law school. Pass the bar test. It will then cost you a lot less to file a lawsuit then the average Joe. No attorney is going to take this sort of case without reasonable up-front money.

A footnote: The DEALER really has the say in what's covered by warranty. That came from BMW-NA. If the dealer thinks a warranty claim is justified - BMW pays it. If the dealer denies it - BMW will normally stand behind the dealer until enough noise is made that it's to their advantage to make the noise go away. The Internet works wonderfully for making the noise. This also highlights the importance of a "reasonable dealer".. The dealer may blame BMW for the denial (called passing the buck..) but in reality - if they had done the warranty work chances are excellent they'd be paid for it.

Dealers are audited on warranty repairs and compared against "normal" - if they have an excessive number of claims, BMW may be slow reimbursing them, or may question some claims that were made. That's a case of BMW spotting what could be potential fraud and acting to correct it.

I'm not an attorney, nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently.. but I have been around the block a few times, and I appreciate an expert's opinion (David's) once in a while on the Web.