New owner, first trip on the R

[badbs101]

It's all above my pay grade but my understanding is that the resistor tuners only affect open loop operation and can not, by definintion, be affected by any O2 sensor readings because open loop means that the O2 sensor is being ignored by the ecu. During open loop, the fueling is controlled by a predetermined fuel map that is dependent on temp and throttle position etc, not O2 sensor readings. In short, nothing for the ecu to "learn" as its not getting any of the readings that it needs to alter af mixture.

[Mike Figielski]

Barry,
What Roger has found and details much later in that monster thread is that the BMW Motronic and BMSK brains take data they receive from their sensors in closed loop operation and apply that to adapt fueling maps in closed loop AND open loop operation. I'm sure Roger will answer your post himself and explain this in an easy to understand way. He is very good at that.
Mike

PS,
I might add that likely outside of Bosch and BMW Roger may well know more about how the BMW Motronic and BMSK work than anyone else. He is the first person I know of who has actually measured and data logged exactly what these brains are doing and how they are using sensor info to "learn" and adapt their fuel maps. He has used the GS911 and also LC1 wideband programable O2 sensors to get this data. He has spent hundreds, maybe thousands of hours logging and charting this data mostly because he is just very interested in the answers. Although he has developed this O2 sensor maniplulator he is not really involved in the business end of it. He has left that to Nightrider to develop and produce the units and to us at Beemerboneyard to help Nightrider sell them. Roger really is just a curious guy and has let the data take him where it led him. He did not come up with a theory he was invested in and tried to prove it, he just kept asking questions, doing testing and logging data. This is why he has changed some of his early conclusions regarding air temp foolers and high pressure fuel regulators and evolved his recommendations as the data took him in that direction.

[deilenberger]

@Barry - the BMS-K goes into closed loop much sooner than any other system BMW has used. You can watch it happen using the GS-911. While under acceleration it would seem that the system should be open-loop, unless the acceleration is extremely fast, the system remains in closed-loop mode (ie - using the O2 sensors to help set the mixture.) That's different than the older systems. Most of the reason is the speed of the processors available when development took place. The R11 was designed in the late 80's, the R12xx in the early '00's. 10-15 years difference between the processors available.

@Mike - I've emailed a bit with Roger - he approached me when he saw a posting I made about how the BMS-K compensates for a failed O2 sensor (it first goes to a programmed map, it then learns what the other O2 sensor is doing, and uses that as an input in place of the dead one.) He's a quite interesting guy to email with if you have any interest in advanced fuel-injection theory.

Mike - does the system you're testing connect to both O2 sensors? For it to really do what is needed, it really should.. since with working 2x O2 sensors - each cylinder's mixture is individually set.

[Mike Figielski]

Hi Don,
Yes, there is an individual AF-XiED unit connected to each O2 sensor. I have emailed Nightrider regarding the question about what happens if one or both unit were to fail. Will post back when I have that answer. Roger has answered the question regarding the BMSK and Motronic adapting out the benefits of an air temp fooler in this ADV Rider post:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost ... tcount=311
He has in another post given a very good analogy comparing the function of the O2 sensor and the air temp sensor to that of a thermometer and thermostat in a home heating system here:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost ... stcount=15
I think this will explain why the air temp fooler will not work without an AF-XiED. In actual use AF-Xied will cause the BMSK or Motronic to eventually, through adaptation, also richen up open loop fuel tables thus negating the need for an air temp fooler. An air temp fooler (or higher pressure fuel regulator) is beneficial in conjunction with the AF-XiED initially to speed up the adaptation in open loop but eventually the AF-XiED would do this anyway.
Barry, I know Roger (as well as me) has no interest in getting into a flame war with makers of the Booster Plug or Ice Air devices. Your Post in Poolside's ICE AIR thread on ADV Rider will serve only to start a useless flame war. I think you can see from the responses you got in that post already that this is the case. Makers of those devices and buyers of them will undoubtedly want to defend them and claim this info is incorrect. That is fine. Roger actually has the data logged to prove this and it is in his very long and in depth posts. I have yet to see anyone associated with the air temp fooling devices actually post data they have logged from bikes with their devices installed. I'd welcome that data if they can post it.

Mike

[Mike Figielski]

Mike, that advrider thread is geek heaven. I look forward to seeing the final product.

Yes, Roger is a very interesting and detail oriented guy. There is a coment in there somewhere where he compares the role of a thermometer with a thermistat. The air temp foolers being the thermometer and the XiED (and O2 sensor) being the thermostat. Basically you can change the temp the thermometer sees but nothing will happen until you reset the thermostat which is in effect what the XiED devices do.
Mike

In addition to the concerns Barry raises, I have a question/concern. What happens if the device fails? My understanding of my review of the advrider thread is that the Xied has two units -- one for each cylinder. What happens if one side fails, or both sides fail during a ride? Does the bike simply revert to its original way of running, does it run somewhat rougher, a lot rougher, or not at all?

Heard back from Steve at Nightrider regarding a potential failure of one or both AF-XiED units on an R1200 bike. Here is his reply:
" The Motronics ECM will see this as an O2 Sensor failure and revert to open loop operation. In open loop operation the ECM calculates the injector opening time, then applies the last adaptive learning value to the injector opening calculations, so the corrections should provide very close to the lambda values when the BMW-AF-XIED was last operating. So the engine will operate quite normally from a Rider perspective. So not a big issue, If there was a failure, but failures are very rare in the AF-XIED's."

Hope that helps Scriber,
Mike

[Scriber]

Heard back from Steve at Nightrider regarding a potential failure of one or both AF-XiED units on an R1200 bike. Here is his reply:
" The Motronics ECM will see this as an O2 Sensor failure and revert to open loop operation. In open loop operation the ECM calculates the injector opening time, then applies the last adaptive learning value to the injector opening calculations, so the corrections should provide very close to the lambda values when the BMW-AF-XIED was last operating. So the engine will operate quite normally from a Rider perspective. So not a big issue, If there was a failure, but failures are very rare in the AF-XIED's."

Hope that helps Scriber,
Mike

Yep. Thanks. No wonder BMW went water cooled. The things they have to do to fueling to meet emissions standards with these bikes is pretty problematic. Got to say though, the fueling isn't that big an issue for me. I'm pretty adaptive myself!

[Mike Figielski]

Yeah, the R1200 bikes are better than previous oilheads with the fueling but it is amazing what adding 6% or 8% fueling can do for the manners of these bikes. The difference in day to day manners and throttle response sure feels klike more than a 6or 8% change, I can tell you that.
Mike

[Lost Rider]

[Booster Plug, Accelerator Module or IICE Air. There are others too but one of these will tame the throttle even more. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638412 I'm not affiliated with any of these, I just know they work.

I think I'm going to run this baby in some more before I start monkeying with fueiling. But thanks for the advice. Here is what I've added so far:

- Luggage rack and tail pack
- Sport screen
- Wunderlich Wind Deflector
- MudSling
- GPS mounted and hooked up to canbus
- Pigtail for my heated vest
- Abdeckring gasket has been ordered
- Tank protection, i.e. tank pads just added
- Throttlemeister on the way

To add in the near future:

- Custom seat -- I'm lucky to live near a guy (Rich's Custom Seats) who does a great job on fitting seats. The stocker is killing me.
- Vario levers -- Had them on my K12S and loved them.

I'm sticking with my Kriega US40 packs and my new tail pack. I tend to travel light even when I'm camping.

Looks and sounds like a good plan, the motor will change as it gets worn in, performance is substantially different @ 10k miles than when brand new.

throttlemiester and Vario's are good stuff, some K-bike mirrors also look nice on the 12R.

Liking your photos too, the white looks great!









And to continue the hijack, Mike, so what is my Bazzaz fuel controller doing, I understand it's a piggy back system, and my O2 sensors are disconnected.
And if increasing fuel across the board is good, then why did Bazzaz find the OEM fuel map to be rich in some places and lean in others while they had my bike for testing?
Not only have I seen improved throttle response, I've gotten a noticeable increase in fuel milage on the highway like Bazzaz said I should. I haven't noticed any change after 5k miles.
I'm far from educated on this sort of thing, I just ride but am happy with the Bazzaz even though I never really felt like something was wrong to start. Anything you can share to help me understand how this system works is appreciated.

Maybe someone could start a new thread to put all this good info into and Bob can take these posts out of here, since we've totally hijacked Scriber's thread and anyone looking for fueling info won't see it...

The Bazzaz thread is here if you'd be so kind as to reply:

http://r1150r.org/board/viewtopic.php?f ... 44#p225944




Bazzaz info on my 12R:

http://www.bazzaz.net/index.php/maps-research-database




http://www.bazzaz.net/z-notes/PDF/BMW_R1200R_07-11.pdf

www.bazzaz.net

[Scriber]

Maybe someone could start a new thread to put all this good info into and Bob can take these posts out of here, since we've totally hijacked Scriber's thread and anyone looking for fueling info won't see it...

I don't mimd at all. Started the thread as a way to introduce myself. But folks may miss the important info that is developing here.

[Mike Figielski]

If the Bazzaz is disconnecting the O2 sensors then they are substituting their own fuel map and using open loop only from the BMSK. At least that is how I see it. Some of the older Dobeck (Techlusion) units did that on the 1100 and 1150 bikes. That approach does work but you lose all of the adaptive function of the BMSK and no offense to Dobeck or Bazzaz but there is no way small companies like that have the resources to test and develop as complex of a fuel map as Bosch or BMW. A lot of engineering hours went into developing the Motronic and BMSK systems. Makes sense to use all of that and just give it the help it needs by allowing it to run a little richer than the emmisions regs that handcuffed BMW engineers. My 2 cents anyway.
Mike

[badbs101]

Mike,

The Xied sounds like it will work great and I will probably get one when my bike is out of warranty. I'm happy enough with the fueling as it is and will continue to run my Accelerator Module until then. Maybe it's the placebo effect but the bike definitely feels smoother and I can run lower rpms easier with it installed. Maybe the ecu can't completely adapt to the Accelerator Module? It seems that, due to the adaptive capability of the ECU that I would have to run a tank or two of gas with and without the AM to really come to a conclusion and it would only be subjective as I don't have any way to measure the actual afrs.

My only remaining question is that of the catalytic convertor. There seems to be, in Roger's thread, some concern about how the catalytic convertor fares with a richer afr. http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.p ... st22191802 I pm'd Roger and he is satisfied that no damage will occur but I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts too. As it is, I'll probably wait until my bike is out of warranty before I buy the Xieds just to be extra safe. I paid a lot for my bike and would rather be safe than sorry. I really appreciate all the info in this, and the other, threads.

Thanks,

Barry

[Lost Rider]

Thanks Mike, makes sense what you are saying.
So in other words since the Bazzaz and my bike were "optimized" near sea level in SoCal where weather conditions don't change much I will for the most part get a good tune from the unit? And when I'm traveling to different climates and altitudes I probably wont be getting the benefits of adaption from the BMSK. Didn't notice much of a difference when in high altitudes this summer, but I wasn't really paying that much attention being distracted by the scenery.

The Xied sounds like a smart product, like I said I never really thought there were major issues with the fueling on the R1200R in the first place and I got the Bazzaz for free, but for someone wanting to change things it makes sense. I'm happy with getting better MPG from my Bazzaz unit, if there's any performance gain then it's a bonus.

[Mike Figielski]

Lost Rider,
Since I am just speculating on how the Bazzaz works I don't feel comfortable commenting on how it is effecting your bike in different environments.
Barry, I don't think there would be any ill effects on the cat convertor with the modest enrichment the AF XiED enables.
Mike

[badbs101]

Just had another thought. Roger talks alot about the difference between 10% ethanol fuel vs. pure gas in his thread. This may explain why I'm fairly happy with the fueling on my bike. Maybe my bike is a bit better behaved because I always run ethanol free (pure) gas.
http://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html
They've also got an app for your smart phone that works to identify stations near your current location that sell the good stuff.

Of course, there's always room for improvement and the Xieds are on my (long) list of farkles.

[Mike Figielski]

Just had another thought. Roger talks alot about the difference between 10% ethanol fuel vs. pure gas in his thread. This may explain why I'm fairly happy with the fueling on my bike. Maybe my bike is a bit better behaved because I always run ethanol free (pure) gas.
http://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html
They've also got an app for your smart phone that works to identify stations near your current location that sell the good stuff.

Of course, there's always room for improvement and the Xieds are on my (long) list of farkles.

That will help for sure. I think there is about a 4% difference with Ethanol burning leaner.