Valve Tapping?

[Riverside]

I have a 2004 R1150R currently with 11,900 on the odometer. The last service was done July 2013 at 5800 with ALL fluids being changed and valves adjusted. I recently rode her from central Pennsylvania to southern California. The trip was two weeks and a day and 3700 miles. She never missed a beat the whole way as would be expected. Over the past 4 weeks, I have been using her to run local errands and have done a couple of 150 mile day trips with my wife on the back. The last few days running around town, I have noticed what sounds to me like a valve tap. I don't hear it when I start up or when running on the highway, but, as the bike heats up and I am in stop and go traffic is when it happens. Age and experience with such things tell me that valve taps normally go away when the engine warms up unless the engine has hydraulic lifters. I am not accustomed to having a valve tap come on when the engine is hot and not cold. Any ideas and suggestions before I pull the valve covers to check clearances?

[kirby]

perfectly normal, in fact if you dont hear them once up to operation temp...it would be of concern

mike

edit,
I am assuming you know the difference between valve tappet noise and "pinging"!

The noise is quite different.

BTW,You should hear my old Guzzi when she gets hot..thats why we wear ear plugs.

[towerworker]

What type and weight oil are you running? Oil gets pretty thin in a hot engine.

I run 20/50 summer and 10/40 winter.

[CycleRob]

I don't hear it when I start up or when running on the highway, but, as the bike heats up and I am in stop and go traffic is when it happens.

That tells me you are hearing combustion chamber pinging, AKA "spark knock". My guess is that the tapping noise is NOT a steady noise, but it sounds for 1 or 2 seconds at most, when you feed out the clutch and give it some throttle. It will only happen when the engine is very hot ("as the bike heats up and I am in stop and go traffic"). Yes, it does sound exactly like a mechanical tapping sound, but it is just an explosive flame front collision with the piston and/or combustion chamber (CC) surfaces.

With only 11,900 on the odometer of a 2004 model your engine is still NOT broken in yet and is likely still using engine oil, requiring at least one oil topping addition before the oil is changed. What that oil burning does is create combustion chamber deposits, which decreases the TDC chamber volume, and that effectively raises the compression ratio. At that point and under high engine temps, even premium grade gasoline will ping. That is what happened with my 2002 R1150R, that finally was broken in after several heavy throttle, higher RPM mile plus long uphill climbs in a remote mountain area of NY state during a fast-guy "group ride". After that weekend ride it literally stopped using oil, but it was still occasionally pinging. Some time later I pulled the heads off to de-carbonize the heavy deposits I found in the CC. After that I was able to use regular grade gasoline with no pinging during normal riding.

So, recapping,
-- Does it make the tapping sound for 1 or 2 seconds at most, when you feed out the clutch and give it throttle with a hot engine?
-- How many oil adds do you usually do between changes?

[Riverside]

Cyclerob and Towerworker... thanks for the input. To answer the questions, I'm currently running the 15-50 oil from the dealer service performed at 5400 miles. And I thought I knew the difference between pinging (detonation) and a valve tap, but, after reading Cyclerob, I'm not sure I do in this case. I did not pay attention to the 1 - 2 second "rule" thing but I will and let you know what I find out. The oil consumption was about 1 quart over the last 6000 miles. Again 3700 of that was my recent trip from the Right to Left coast and most of that was in the first 4000 miles. Oil consumption does seem to have tapered off lately.(Topped it before leaving and emptied the last of the first quart into it in Indiana, added a few ounces in New Mexico and nothing since) There was a combination of "spirited" mountain roads and super slab droning-on-forever roads. On the slab I ran around 70 - 75. The other thing that supports the pinging theory is I am now in SoCal and premium here is only 91 octane. 93 seems to have been available only on the Right coast. We are going to get a hot flash here in the San Diego area so I think I will get a chance to test the theory shortly.
Any experience with using additives to the gas to clean out the CC? Not anxious to pull heads on a bike with under 12000 miles on the clock. I've had good results in cars but never tried to run it in a bike. And what about octane boosters cuz detonation don't sound like a good thing?

[rprothero]

Could it be the cam chain tensioner... The original stock tensioner loses it's hydraulic pressure after a while..I changed mine out and the sound went away ...was like a tapping at idle after a hot ride. Now it purrs and sounds more like just oil sloshing around lubricating the gearing..Chris Harris did a YouTube on this a while back on an rt with similar noise...changed the tensioner and bob's your uncle noise stopped happening

[aerokurt]

Update?

[peels]

my bike is ticky. Ive never seen a BMW boxer that wasnt.

Once in awhile, if really warm, and I go hard on the brakes and downshift, mine will tick a little louder for a second or so as I drop the clutch out, like oil sloshed around or something. I'm thinking ill swap the tensioner at some point. But Im not worried.

[Riverside]

I have no definitive answer to the tapping noise yet. It has not been doing it lately except for a July 4 trip to Mission Beach. Lot's of traffic and heat and stop and go riding in town..... with passenger. Noticed it then.Lessened after some freeway sprints and open country roads. Did an oil change on Sunday and haven't had it out since. Will report back when I've run it a bit. South left coast is having some warm weather so I will get the chance to reproduce the conditions I hear it in. Keep you posted.

[Riverside]

To those that are interested. I have had the bike out numerous times since the oil change in hot weather and stop and go riding and the valve tap has been significantly reduced. It is still a bit "ticky" as Peels noted, but, nothing I think is out of character. I've not experienced oil causing a problem like this before with other vehicles so this was new to me. I guess the trip across the country may have put more strain on the oil than I would expect. Not something I'm used to, but, neither are the peculiarities of a Beemer. Thank you all for the input.

[Riverside]

I have about 3000 miles on the last oil change and the metallic tapping noise is still with me and getting more frequent. It is most pronounced when the bike is up to operating temperature. And it is quite regular. If I ride for a while and bring the engine up to temp it is very noticeable when idling at stop lights. If I get off the bike for a short stop of say 20 minutes and restart the noise is not apparent. A few minutes of riding and it is back. I have located it as coming from the right cylinder. I have checked the valve follower clearance and it is good all around. I have two current theories. 1. The bike was backed into about 6000 miles ago and landed on the right valve cover. There are no scuffs on the pipes but I thought maybe the exhaust might have been hit enough to crack the gasket sealing the pipe to the head. Years ago I had an exhaust manifold gasket leak on a car and this made a metallic sound. I put a mechanics stethoscope to the pipe flange and the the sound seems to be coming from that area. At least it is more pronounced than other spots. 2. I like rprotheros suggestion to check the cam chain tensioner. It is the original and this in in the same region as the noise comes from. performance does not seem to be affected. Starts easily, runs smooth and accelerates quite well.
Does anyone have any experience with either of these two problems that produced a tapping noise when the engine reached operating temperature? If I don't sort this out I will have to resort to the dreaded taking it to the dealer route which means giving up eating for the next few months. All input is welcome.

[peels]

I might concur on the exhaust leak. small leaks can sound a lot like clicking metal.

My Dodge Dakota did that when cold. turned out to be manifold bolt had backed itself out. thats it.

I remember reading the throttle bodies can wear out and make noise. could it be that? google "r1150 throttle body noise" theres some vids.

and LOL at not eating to afford the dealer.

[carl1957]

If the cam chain tensioner hasn't been up-graded, do it. It's not very expensive, and is easy to do. http://rubberchickenracinggarage.com/chain.html

[spoon]

I did a quick look through this and saw just a brief mention of the throttle body shaft. Have you put your finger on the right side throttle body pull, on the engine side of the TB. You may feel the pully hammering around and finger pressure will quite things down. Do this at idle. At about 25,000 miles mine was worn. There is a kit to repair this.

[Riverside]

Spoon, Thank you for the input. I just took off the exhaust pipes today to check the manifold gaskets. Putting them back on tomorrow when I get another gasket, dealer closed today. I will check the throttle body shaft... If I can find it. I looked at my Clymer manual and there is no mention of anything called a "throttle body shaft" even though I have run across the term numerous times on the forum. The diagram does not show anything labeled that. I have not had the throttle bodies off at all and may understand as soon as I do. I am guessing it is what we old-timey back yard wrenchers would call the butterfly shaft? The center shaft on the throttle pully wheel????
I am hoping the new exhaust gasket solves the problem, but, if not I will check that next. Did yours do it only after warmed up? That is the only time I hear it right now.

I must say that I am a little concerned about my first Beemer having so many potential problems at such low mileage. The list of potential illnesses is a long one. From worn throttle bodies to early clutch shaft spline failure. Kinda contradicts the legendary reliability you hear about.

[Riverside]

Well the tapping noise seems to come and go. I did hear the dreaded cam chain tensioner on start up a couple of times. I checked the hex head holding it in place and it is a 15mm hex. Does anyone know if this is original and defective or am I looking at an upgrade gone bad? I thought I recall reading BMW made a change around that model year.(2004) I got one from Rubber Chicken Racing and will replace it regardless since I have it and I hear it clanking on cold starts. It sounds fine after a couple of seconds. Hoping this solves the valve tapping noise when warmed up. Input is welcome. Still not sure where the noise is coming from.

[rprothero]

Riverside -

Its not uncommon for it to clank a little on initial startup as its pressurizing the oil ...If it stops I wouldnt worry about changing it out. I was confused by your last post.. Are you saying it goes away completely or that the initial tapping where tensioner is goes away but that you still hear the sound in other areas?

I have an 02 and mine always taps when starting up but usually goes away once the oil gets pushed around the engine..

[Riverside]

rprothero,

The clanking noise is present hot or cold and goes away within a few seconds after start up. The tapping noise which I identified as something separate earlier in the post still comes on after the bike is warmed up. It sounds all the world like a valve tap. I have adjusted the valves and checked them twice. I am pretty sure they are right. And if it were valve adjustment you would expect to hear it when the engine was cold and the clearances wider. Not the case. I haven't been able to accurately locate it even with a stethoscope. I have pretty much given up on figuring it out myself and as duplicating it can be difficult I am just going to give up and take it into a local shop for service. There is an independent shop out here that has a good reputation for troubleshooting. And it is nearly time to get TB balance etc. Having played with classic sports cars and various other stuff mechanical over the years it is very frustrating.

[rprothero]

I hate those kinds of problems ..Its one thing to find a problem and realize you cant fix it ..its another to never be able to nail it down for sure..had something similar on my 4 wheeled vehicle in the past..The only way to get rid of the nag in my head was to trade it for a newer one ...Good luck at the shop if they figure it out please post what you can about the cause ..Will be good for future reference..

[rocky2ie]

Hi Riverside, these bikes make all sorts of different noises when hot and when cold, most are just characteristics of the boxer engine.Mine makes an intermittent ticking noise on right hand side, it is the throttle body even with a ticker killer fitted. and it isn't even a high mileage bike. If the noise goes away just after startup it is probably the cam chain tensioner. Clutch rattle is another typical noise, thankfully mine is gone after doing clutch spacer mod. Sorry I can't be more specific but if you can get to know all the different noises and what causes them then you will know when a new one arrives