I think we've been 'round the barn a few times on this one. The fact is, no helmet is going to save you from the big one, and who cares at that point what the bucket cost you. Buy what fits, is comfortable, and makes sense to YOU as the wearer. Like politics & religion, we should ban helmet opinions here too, because there is no definitive answer, and because all heads, all accidents, and all wallets are not alike. Some are harder than others. Some have less jello inside. But all are fragile and irreplaceable.
Maybe the idiots (my opinion) wearing only doo-rags have solved the quandry for us - when you have THE accident, remove yourself from the gene pool instantly, and there's no worries about how good the helmet is (was). And maybe carry knives, screwdrivers, & pens in their pockets to help that change along.....
My next helmet will cost $80!
Moderator: Moderators
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collyers
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Vintage Lance (with a side of fava beans)
The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.
What a great thread!
Well reasoned, and for the most part, well tempered.
Hey Dave:
Actually that's not entirely true, but I do consider the wallet when making spending decisions.
And one more thing, Dave. Does it ever embarrass you just a little, that an intelligent, sophisticated gentleman such as yourself finds Larry the Cable Guy so gotdang funny? It sure does me.
George
Well reasoned, and for the most part, well tempered.
Hey Dave:
Well that's easy for you to say...Please don't just think with your wallet when choosing a helmet.
I usually end up with a mid-range Shoei because I work for one of the poorest (and cheapest) states in the nation  I have to think with my wallet. I order from the right side of the menu too.What do I wear? I happen to work for a company where I can get almost any helmet cheap.
Actually that's not entirely true, but I do consider the wallet when making spending decisions.
And one more thing, Dave. Does it ever embarrass you just a little, that an intelligent, sophisticated gentleman such as yourself finds Larry the Cable Guy so gotdang funny? It sure does me.
George
Member #191
Carpe momentum... y'all
Carpe momentum... y'all
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darthrider
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Quote:
Please don't just think with your wallet when choosing a helmet.
Well that's easy for you to say...
Quote:
What do I wear? I happen to work for a company where I can get almost any helmet cheap.
Good point...sort of. Before I worked here I wore the best Shoei I could find or an AGV. I wore Bells back when *they* were the class act.
Never wore "$80 helmets", never will.
I started wearing good helmets long before they were required, in fashion, or considered "the thing" to do. Same for seat belts.
At that time my test was very simple...who are the best riders and drivers in the world? The racers. What do the racers wear? Helmets & seatbelts.
And you have probably figured out by now I am the Non-Safety Nazi. I speed and regularly engage in hooliganality of many types. But I am always wearing a *good* helmet or seatbelt.
As for Larry the Cable Guy...I don't care *who* you are, he's funny!
Now...let's talk about something on which we all agree.
How 'bout ABS?
Please don't just think with your wallet when choosing a helmet.
Well that's easy for you to say...
Quote:
What do I wear? I happen to work for a company where I can get almost any helmet cheap.
Good point...sort of. Before I worked here I wore the best Shoei I could find or an AGV. I wore Bells back when *they* were the class act.
Never wore "$80 helmets", never will.
I started wearing good helmets long before they were required, in fashion, or considered "the thing" to do. Same for seat belts.
At that time my test was very simple...who are the best riders and drivers in the world? The racers. What do the racers wear? Helmets & seatbelts.
And you have probably figured out by now I am the Non-Safety Nazi. I speed and regularly engage in hooliganality of many types. But I am always wearing a *good* helmet or seatbelt.
As for Larry the Cable Guy...I don't care *who* you are, he's funny!
Now...let's talk about something on which we all agree.
How 'bout ABS?
Dave
#226
I've spent most of my life on motorcycles, the rest I've just wasted...
#226
I've spent most of my life on motorcycles, the rest I've just wasted...
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Optimus Prime
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He's funny in that, "holy crap, Darwin was way wrong" sorta way.darthrider wrote:
As for Larry the Cable Guy...I don't care *who* you are, he's funny!
I don't care *who* you are... That's funny right there. 
darthrider wrote: Now...let's talk about something on which we all agree.
How 'bout ABS?
Maybe we could talk about the upcoming BMW T800 release at the Paris show. That bike may be just the bike I'm looking for. Too bad I like my oilhead more and more every day.
Darth - you ARE an Old F*rt!darthrider wrote:I wore Bells back when *they* were the class act.
First brand new helmet I ever bought when I started riding 25 years ago was a black Bell Star II. It was reputed (by my dealer - San Diego Suzuki) to be the best you cculd buy at the time. Man, was that ever a heavy helmet!
Bob
2006 R1200GS ADV "Five Charlie"
2006 R1200GS ADV "Five Charlie"
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darthrider
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darthrider wrote:
I wore Bells back when *they* were the class act.
Darth - you ARE an Old F*rt!
Ummm...yes.
My first Bell was a 500 and was a true "dual sport" helmet. I used it for both skydiving & motorcycle riding.
I still have a ~1982 Magnum on the "dead helmet shelf" in the shop. I kept it because I had a "Gary Nixon 4-pointed star" custom paint job done on it to match my Norton. The liner all crumbled & fell out about 10 years ago.
I wore Bells back when *they* were the class act.
Darth - you ARE an Old F*rt!
Ummm...yes.
My first Bell was a 500 and was a true "dual sport" helmet. I used it for both skydiving & motorcycle riding.
I still have a ~1982 Magnum on the "dead helmet shelf" in the shop. I kept it because I had a "Gary Nixon 4-pointed star" custom paint job done on it to match my Norton. The liner all crumbled & fell out about 10 years ago.
Dave
#226
I've spent most of my life on motorcycles, the rest I've just wasted...
#226
I've spent most of my life on motorcycles, the rest I've just wasted...
helmets
I will apologize first, and explain later.....see below. This thread has gone on for 4 pages and NOBODY has actually gotten to the core of the issue, except for a few arguments about who is willing to spend what for a helmet.. Again, I want to FIRST apologize IF my comments offend anyone, but........
There may be only ONE thing I know more about than any of you guys when it comes to motorcycling, and it is this subject. Not because I am an engineer, helmet vendor etc. But because I am a surgical specialist who both rides motorcycles and takes care of people when they crash and are brought to the Emergency Room with injuries involving the face. By virtue of the fact that IF they injure their face, the head has gone along for that ride. I have a lot of experience in this area. More than I would like to think about.
In the course of my surgical training, there was quite a bit of time as a resident on the neurosurgery service. I have taken patients to the operating room emergently to open their skull to drain blood and relieve pressure, placed intracranial pressure monitors, managed them after surgery to keep the pressures down, etc. etc. I have patched leaks of cerebrospinal fluid from the skull persistently running into the nose. I have extracted foreign objects from the inside of the skull that were outside the skull only a short time before an "incident." I have dealt with trying to figure out how to manage a patient with their nose completely ripped off their face, their jaw torn into multiple pieces, etc. The list goes on and on.
This is not theoreticaly experience; it is not Ivory Tower experience; it is not in the lab experience. This is on the scene, blood pouring from orifices, rushing the patient to the operating room experience. And frankly (here, I apologize again) you guys have no idea what you are talking about, for the most part. Except Darth, who has stayed out of the medical side of this.
Do you think I find out any detail about the helmet in these cases? You bet your sweet....bottom....that I do. First, so I can better understand the what we refer to as "the mechanism of injury." Second, because I ride, a lot. And I want to know what is what in a PRACTICAL sense.
Now, is a hard outer shell a good or bad idea? Well, in general, it is a good idea. How do we know this? It isn't from Snell testing or DOT testing. It is from looking closely at the very very best design ever invented. US!!! WE are constructed with a VERY hard shell on the outside, with thin layers of some shock absorptive material inside that, then the brain. That is us from outside to in. If there was a better design, we would have evolved into it. Unless you don't believe in evolution, but that is another subject. Or maybe we were intelligently designed into it......that is another subject. If you are an atheist who also doesn't believe in evolution, then stop reading now, I guess.
Next issue....and Scottybooj, here is where you get it wrong.
What is the VALUE of the hard shell? It is the fact that it is shaped on a continuous convex shape and is NON deformable. What that does is DISTRIBUTE the force of an impact over the entire surface of that convexity so the force delivered to any one area is smaller. The critical issue here for this to work properly is FIT. The helmet liner and deformable material must be very very snug against the skull. IF the shell is deformable, it will allow for concentration of force in a smaller area. That can have very negative consequences. And if the foam liner is soft, it is even worse.
The question from the neurosurgical standpoint is what type of trauma is going to cause the bleeding inside the skull? It is either going to be focal concentration of force in one area or shearing forces that pull the brain away from one side of the skull and push it into the other, as a whole. Both are bad, by the way.
So we take our chances with riding and having a hit in the head in any case. BUT, if you have to choose one type of helmet to use, you want the type that will minimize the "bad event" given how you might most likely have a helmet contact that would be hard enough to get you into brain trouble. You want that force distributed as evenly as possible over the widest area possible, with that force delivered all at once, if possible.
Now, finally..........watch MotoGP crash videos where those guys hit their head. There are plenty of them. Guess what. Most of those guys get up IF they didn't damage a leg or ankle. That includes Nikano's crash at over 200 mph last season and he DID hit his helmet MORE THAN ONCE when he tumbled.
MOST MC crashes that have a helmet hit contact THE FRONT OF THE HELMET IN THE CHIN AND FACE SHIELD AREA. Do you think redistributing the forces of that contact over as much area as possible is a good idea? YES! So you think that ultra convenient and comfy non snug fitting flip up modular helmet is a good idea? Especially if there is ANY chance that the locking mechanism will fail? AND THEY DO.....BECAUSE I GET TO OPERATE ON THESE FOLKS!!! The answer is no. But the market suggests they will become even more popular.
Did you know that most of them sold have plastic to plastic connectors between the lid and chin parts?
So you all ride with what you want. I hope and pray each time I throw a leg over the saddle that I will not have to test any of my equipment. But in the meantime, I will ride with my very snug fitting full face non modular Arai helmet. I think Shoei helmets are great too, they just don't fit me as well.
And $$$?? Come on. You all own bikes that cost over 10K new. And $500 is the make or break point for literally the most important protective gear you will ever own? Skin can be grafted. Many orthopedic injuries can be fixed well enough that you can at least live. But the noggin......Give me a break.
Sorry for the rant.
Bones
There may be only ONE thing I know more about than any of you guys when it comes to motorcycling, and it is this subject. Not because I am an engineer, helmet vendor etc. But because I am a surgical specialist who both rides motorcycles and takes care of people when they crash and are brought to the Emergency Room with injuries involving the face. By virtue of the fact that IF they injure their face, the head has gone along for that ride. I have a lot of experience in this area. More than I would like to think about.
In the course of my surgical training, there was quite a bit of time as a resident on the neurosurgery service. I have taken patients to the operating room emergently to open their skull to drain blood and relieve pressure, placed intracranial pressure monitors, managed them after surgery to keep the pressures down, etc. etc. I have patched leaks of cerebrospinal fluid from the skull persistently running into the nose. I have extracted foreign objects from the inside of the skull that were outside the skull only a short time before an "incident." I have dealt with trying to figure out how to manage a patient with their nose completely ripped off their face, their jaw torn into multiple pieces, etc. The list goes on and on.
This is not theoreticaly experience; it is not Ivory Tower experience; it is not in the lab experience. This is on the scene, blood pouring from orifices, rushing the patient to the operating room experience. And frankly (here, I apologize again) you guys have no idea what you are talking about, for the most part. Except Darth, who has stayed out of the medical side of this.
Do you think I find out any detail about the helmet in these cases? You bet your sweet....bottom....that I do. First, so I can better understand the what we refer to as "the mechanism of injury." Second, because I ride, a lot. And I want to know what is what in a PRACTICAL sense.
Now, is a hard outer shell a good or bad idea? Well, in general, it is a good idea. How do we know this? It isn't from Snell testing or DOT testing. It is from looking closely at the very very best design ever invented. US!!! WE are constructed with a VERY hard shell on the outside, with thin layers of some shock absorptive material inside that, then the brain. That is us from outside to in. If there was a better design, we would have evolved into it. Unless you don't believe in evolution, but that is another subject. Or maybe we were intelligently designed into it......that is another subject. If you are an atheist who also doesn't believe in evolution, then stop reading now, I guess.
Next issue....and Scottybooj, here is where you get it wrong.
What is the VALUE of the hard shell? It is the fact that it is shaped on a continuous convex shape and is NON deformable. What that does is DISTRIBUTE the force of an impact over the entire surface of that convexity so the force delivered to any one area is smaller. The critical issue here for this to work properly is FIT. The helmet liner and deformable material must be very very snug against the skull. IF the shell is deformable, it will allow for concentration of force in a smaller area. That can have very negative consequences. And if the foam liner is soft, it is even worse.
The question from the neurosurgical standpoint is what type of trauma is going to cause the bleeding inside the skull? It is either going to be focal concentration of force in one area or shearing forces that pull the brain away from one side of the skull and push it into the other, as a whole. Both are bad, by the way.
So we take our chances with riding and having a hit in the head in any case. BUT, if you have to choose one type of helmet to use, you want the type that will minimize the "bad event" given how you might most likely have a helmet contact that would be hard enough to get you into brain trouble. You want that force distributed as evenly as possible over the widest area possible, with that force delivered all at once, if possible.
Now, finally..........watch MotoGP crash videos where those guys hit their head. There are plenty of them. Guess what. Most of those guys get up IF they didn't damage a leg or ankle. That includes Nikano's crash at over 200 mph last season and he DID hit his helmet MORE THAN ONCE when he tumbled.
MOST MC crashes that have a helmet hit contact THE FRONT OF THE HELMET IN THE CHIN AND FACE SHIELD AREA. Do you think redistributing the forces of that contact over as much area as possible is a good idea? YES! So you think that ultra convenient and comfy non snug fitting flip up modular helmet is a good idea? Especially if there is ANY chance that the locking mechanism will fail? AND THEY DO.....BECAUSE I GET TO OPERATE ON THESE FOLKS!!! The answer is no. But the market suggests they will become even more popular.
Did you know that most of them sold have plastic to plastic connectors between the lid and chin parts?
So you all ride with what you want. I hope and pray each time I throw a leg over the saddle that I will not have to test any of my equipment. But in the meantime, I will ride with my very snug fitting full face non modular Arai helmet. I think Shoei helmets are great too, they just don't fit me as well.
And $$$?? Come on. You all own bikes that cost over 10K new. And $500 is the make or break point for literally the most important protective gear you will ever own? Skin can be grafted. Many orthopedic injuries can be fixed well enough that you can at least live. But the noggin......Give me a break.
Sorry for the rant.
Bones
helmets
Well, if it was a rant, it was one of the best and most informative ones I have read! Excellent points. Thanks for the insight and sharing your experinence Bones!
'02 in black - the real BMW color! (Now gone to a new home)
Vann - Lifer No. 295
Vann - Lifer No. 295
Bones,
Great post. As for apologies, one is not necessary. I'm sure everyone here wants to know your professional opinion on the subject. Call it a rant if you want, I call it vital truth from someone in the know.
I do have a few points. I don't intend them to be counterpoints, but just additional information.
Hard Vs not-so-hard.
With every material on this planet, hard also means more brittle.
What you are saying about harder shells is accurate unless the impact is such to overcome the modulus of elasticity and break the shell. The modulu of elasticity is inversely proportional to the hardness (with some variance in high alloy metals such as inconel). Once the shell is broken, the impact absorption is greatly reduced. In the case of such a hard impact, a softer shell will withstand and absorb more impact force. Obviously, with an impact of that magnitude, the deformation of the softer shell will probably outweigh the advantage of the shell not breaking. Like you imply, the deformation at lower force impacts (not sufficient to crush a harder shell) is a negative.
I have no idea how hard the average impact is. Your experience is invaluable here, and I trust it.
"Plastic" Vs metal Vs composite
Being a polymer engineer, I always like to point out some details about plastics.
First, composite materials are also plastic. The strength of carbon fiber, kevlar or even fiberglass can be much stronger than many metals when weight and size are considerations in the design. Obviously, the failure modes must be considered and the design must facilitate failure in the correct mode. (For example, plastics typically don't have much shear or compression values, but their tensile strength and elasticity can be very very strong.)
Secondly, going back to the modulus of elasticity, Thermo plastics such as polyethylene are much less brittle than metal or thermal plastics such as the resins used in composite construction. It is wrong to assume that plastic is not as strong as metal. Shear, tensile, compression and elasticity have to be taken into consideration for design purposes.
I'm not saying that the plastic mechanisms in modular helmets are better or stronger, only that the formula "metal = strength" is not always the case.
*****************************************
In the end, I really apprteciate your candid and professional opinion on this subject.
Regards,
Jeff
Great post. As for apologies, one is not necessary. I'm sure everyone here wants to know your professional opinion on the subject. Call it a rant if you want, I call it vital truth from someone in the know.
I do have a few points. I don't intend them to be counterpoints, but just additional information.
Hard Vs not-so-hard.
With every material on this planet, hard also means more brittle.
What you are saying about harder shells is accurate unless the impact is such to overcome the modulus of elasticity and break the shell. The modulu of elasticity is inversely proportional to the hardness (with some variance in high alloy metals such as inconel). Once the shell is broken, the impact absorption is greatly reduced. In the case of such a hard impact, a softer shell will withstand and absorb more impact force. Obviously, with an impact of that magnitude, the deformation of the softer shell will probably outweigh the advantage of the shell not breaking. Like you imply, the deformation at lower force impacts (not sufficient to crush a harder shell) is a negative.
I have no idea how hard the average impact is. Your experience is invaluable here, and I trust it.
"Plastic" Vs metal Vs composite
Being a polymer engineer, I always like to point out some details about plastics.
First, composite materials are also plastic. The strength of carbon fiber, kevlar or even fiberglass can be much stronger than many metals when weight and size are considerations in the design. Obviously, the failure modes must be considered and the design must facilitate failure in the correct mode. (For example, plastics typically don't have much shear or compression values, but their tensile strength and elasticity can be very very strong.)
Secondly, going back to the modulus of elasticity, Thermo plastics such as polyethylene are much less brittle than metal or thermal plastics such as the resins used in composite construction. It is wrong to assume that plastic is not as strong as metal. Shear, tensile, compression and elasticity have to be taken into consideration for design purposes.
I'm not saying that the plastic mechanisms in modular helmets are better or stronger, only that the formula "metal = strength" is not always the case.
*****************************************
In the end, I really apprteciate your candid and professional opinion on this subject.
Regards,
Jeff
Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
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darthrider
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This forum is very important to us but it is also very small.
I wish there was a good way to broadly share some of the wisdom, experience, intellect, knowledge and understanding sometimes seen here.
Thank you Bones. I remember when you tee'd off like that once before on the same subject and both times I was just amazed.
You owe no apologies.
I wish there was a good way to broadly share some of the wisdom, experience, intellect, knowledge and understanding sometimes seen here.
Thank you Bones. I remember when you tee'd off like that once before on the same subject and both times I was just amazed.
You owe no apologies.
Dave
#226
I've spent most of my life on motorcycles, the rest I've just wasted...
#226
I've spent most of my life on motorcycles, the rest I've just wasted...
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socalrob
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Thanks for the info Bones. Its priceless. Thanks again. With no real evidence, I have always had a fear of sliding down the asphalt on my face. I wore a solid full face lid in the 1970's because of that fear. I also wear a tight fit lid, & after reading your post I think I'll get a new one pretty soon as my current is 2 years old & is looser than when new.
I sure wish helmet crash statistics that take into account the exact style of helmet were available. The helmet/no helmet statistics are useless when you factor that it seems most helmets are substandard.
I sure wish helmet crash statistics that take into account the exact style of helmet were available. The helmet/no helmet statistics are useless when you factor that it seems most helmets are substandard.
07 1200GSA & 08 Ducati Hypermotard S
& Honda XR400
Past-04 R1150R
& Honda XR400
Past-04 R1150R
helmets
Well, thanks guys, for not getting pissed. I re read my post and it was a little testy. Mainly because if any of you have a "get off" and hit your head, I would prefer to find out that you got up and walked away and are only pissed about the cost of broken bike parts.
New2BMW.........agreed on all points re plastics, composites and metals. My empiric observation (this is not a controlled study, just observation) is that the flip up helmets I have seen fail have had plastic to plastic attatchments most of the time. I was hoping to stay out of mentioning any brands in particular, but I will now, because it may save someone a body part or two. Go look at the current HJC flip ups. You could practically pull the attatchments open with your fingers. I have seen them fail and it isn't pretty. The HJC's are very popular around here probably because of price point and availability. And they seem to be comfortable during the "try on" in the store. That is ANOTHER thread: proper helmet fit. If it is comfortable in a two minute try on in the store, it probably isn't fit properly (not snug enough). Also........I prefer D ring strap attatchment under the chin. I have seen the clip together type fail, too. I have never yet seen the D ring type fail........unless someone forgot to use it.
Re the hardness vs brittleness: no argument from the engineering standpoint. As modulus expresses stress vs strain, no question you are correct. However, in a PRACTICAL sense, I can only report what I have seen over the years. I have never seen (and hope to never see) one of the "higher end" helmets such as an Arai or Shoei have the outer shell fail in the way you express concern. Seen them chipped. Seen chunks missing. Seen them scraped through the outer shell. But I haven't seen one of the "harder" Snell approved take a hard hit and have the shell crack in the way you might think a "brittle" shell would. I have seen some pretty torn up, crushed, mangled and useless "softer" helmets. It goes back to watching what happens in MOST MC crashes. Obviously, there are the exceptions, such as the truck running over someone after they are down, the thrown rider being impaled by a rod or metal shaft, etc. But those are the exceptions. The majority are due to the rider hitting a car that crosses in front of them OR the rider low siding at speed or high siding and having the impact come when they hit the ground tangentially.
Gotta go operate on some folks, so will sign off for now.
One thread we should really start is "how did you fit your helmet before buying." I will bet the majority bought one a full size too big. I did the first time!
Bones
New2BMW.........agreed on all points re plastics, composites and metals. My empiric observation (this is not a controlled study, just observation) is that the flip up helmets I have seen fail have had plastic to plastic attatchments most of the time. I was hoping to stay out of mentioning any brands in particular, but I will now, because it may save someone a body part or two. Go look at the current HJC flip ups. You could practically pull the attatchments open with your fingers. I have seen them fail and it isn't pretty. The HJC's are very popular around here probably because of price point and availability. And they seem to be comfortable during the "try on" in the store. That is ANOTHER thread: proper helmet fit. If it is comfortable in a two minute try on in the store, it probably isn't fit properly (not snug enough). Also........I prefer D ring strap attatchment under the chin. I have seen the clip together type fail, too. I have never yet seen the D ring type fail........unless someone forgot to use it.
Re the hardness vs brittleness: no argument from the engineering standpoint. As modulus expresses stress vs strain, no question you are correct. However, in a PRACTICAL sense, I can only report what I have seen over the years. I have never seen (and hope to never see) one of the "higher end" helmets such as an Arai or Shoei have the outer shell fail in the way you express concern. Seen them chipped. Seen chunks missing. Seen them scraped through the outer shell. But I haven't seen one of the "harder" Snell approved take a hard hit and have the shell crack in the way you might think a "brittle" shell would. I have seen some pretty torn up, crushed, mangled and useless "softer" helmets. It goes back to watching what happens in MOST MC crashes. Obviously, there are the exceptions, such as the truck running over someone after they are down, the thrown rider being impaled by a rod or metal shaft, etc. But those are the exceptions. The majority are due to the rider hitting a car that crosses in front of them OR the rider low siding at speed or high siding and having the impact come when they hit the ground tangentially.
Gotta go operate on some folks, so will sign off for now.
One thread we should really start is "how did you fit your helmet before buying." I will bet the majority bought one a full size too big. I did the first time!
Bones
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darthrider
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You know, maybe it doesn't take a "brain surgeon" and/or a "rocket scientist" to figure this out. But maybe it does.
But isn't the coolest thing that we have them on here doing their best to keep us alive and "pretty"?!
But isn't the coolest thing that we have them on here doing their best to keep us alive and "pretty"?!
Dave
#226
I've spent most of my life on motorcycles, the rest I've just wasted...
#226
I've spent most of my life on motorcycles, the rest I've just wasted...
I'll join the 'appologize ahead of time crowd'....
Just what did you inform us of in your rant Bones? I had a hard time finding information relevant to the article/topic.
Soft helmet vs. hard?? Huh... it was about the compression material being unable to 'absorb' enough impact force, since the snell standards are unrealistic and result in making these crushable materials too dense, and in meeting these standards the helmet has to cost too much.
You seem to get a lot of patients showing up either with their helmets on display and/or someone to give you a report of helmet type, manufactuer, DOT vs. Snell, and exact impact information. That's unusual...
Anyway, of course motorcycle crash victims show up with all sorts of body/head/brain damage... of course. But relating 'that' experience to what helmet they had on and how well it did it's job without TONS of info you don't have, isn't very diagnostic regarding their helmet.
Keep up the good work trying to save these folks... but don't think that your ability to recount grusome injury stories makes you a helmet expert...
Aren't you glad I appologized ahead of time....
P.S. As far as I've seen, no one so far 'is' a helmet expert.... but it is nice to hear some opinions, especially from those who read the article in question.
Just what did you inform us of in your rant Bones? I had a hard time finding information relevant to the article/topic.
Soft helmet vs. hard?? Huh... it was about the compression material being unable to 'absorb' enough impact force, since the snell standards are unrealistic and result in making these crushable materials too dense, and in meeting these standards the helmet has to cost too much.
You seem to get a lot of patients showing up either with their helmets on display and/or someone to give you a report of helmet type, manufactuer, DOT vs. Snell, and exact impact information. That's unusual...
Anyway, of course motorcycle crash victims show up with all sorts of body/head/brain damage... of course. But relating 'that' experience to what helmet they had on and how well it did it's job without TONS of info you don't have, isn't very diagnostic regarding their helmet.
Keep up the good work trying to save these folks... but don't think that your ability to recount grusome injury stories makes you a helmet expert...
Aren't you glad I appologized ahead of time....
P.S. As far as I've seen, no one so far 'is' a helmet expert.... but it is nice to hear some opinions, especially from those who read the article in question.
03' Black Roadster
Southern California
Southern California
Let's see, Bones' opinions and observations versus Lance's interpretation of a magazine article - hmmm, which one is going to shape my opinion more profundly.......hmmmmmm.........that's a tough one............
Bones - you the man, especially since you figured out what caused my lowside on the track last weekend!
Bones - you the man, especially since you figured out what caused my lowside on the track last weekend!
Last edited by BobFV1 on Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bob
2006 R1200GS ADV "Five Charlie"
2006 R1200GS ADV "Five Charlie"
So what have I learned from all this?
A. There's always someone whose knowledge and experience trumps popular misconceptions, folk tales, and just plain wishful thinking...
(Thanks, Bones. I heard what you were saying)
2. There are patient people all over, who will explain, based on their experience and knowledge, a rational approach to solving a particular problem and do it without rancor.
(Thanks, Dave. I heard what you were saying, too.)
III. You find amazingly talented people all over the place and more times than not, they have something worth listening carefully to.
(Thanks, New2. I'll be thinking about that stuff when I get a new hat)
D. I fear I'm going to have to learn to twist my body like a cat in freefall, so that I land on the back of my helmet and not do that face plant thing. Anyone know of any good gymnastic schools for the over 55???
A. There's always someone whose knowledge and experience trumps popular misconceptions, folk tales, and just plain wishful thinking...
(Thanks, Bones. I heard what you were saying)
2. There are patient people all over, who will explain, based on their experience and knowledge, a rational approach to solving a particular problem and do it without rancor.
(Thanks, Dave. I heard what you were saying, too.)
III. You find amazingly talented people all over the place and more times than not, they have something worth listening carefully to.
(Thanks, New2. I'll be thinking about that stuff when I get a new hat)
D. I fear I'm going to have to learn to twist my body like a cat in freefall, so that I land on the back of my helmet and not do that face plant thing. Anyone know of any good gymnastic schools for the over 55???
arkline #27
not THE Ron Kline
"No matter where you go, there you are."
not THE Ron Kline
"No matter where you go, there you are."
There was a photo of a motorcycle facial injury in the old site's picture archives...Posted I think by Lilfoot way back when. It was gruesome! And, I've no doubt, was a patient of one of Bones' fellow "face" docs. I don't know if anyone remembers that picture, but it was burned into my memory forever at the time I was shopping for a helmet. Had I had the up-close and personal information that Bones has just given us, I could have paired that photo with some actual "hands-on" guidance and made a much different decision about the helmet I decided to buy. I ended up with a Nolan flip-up and it has the ratchet type chin strap lock. Here all along I've been thinking I'd like to get a better full face, just to help reduce the noise level. Now I KNOW I'm getting one, and pretty soon, and not just for the noise suppression factor.
Thanks Doc.
Thanks Doc.