BMW R1200R R1150R/T F800 K1200R R1100R/T R1250R RnineT Message Board

Hey again everybody, all things considered, if you had it to do over, would you buy your bike with or without ABS? Sorry to pick your brains so much. Thanks again, Sarah

ABS was one of the features that drew me to BMW, especiallyafter seeing some results and comments based on their use in police service. I had a non-ABS RR and one of the major factors in helping me decide to trade in a perfectly good bike on my RT was that my R did not have ABS. I feel that riding fullly loaded 2up the ABS is a major advantage. I have not had any problem with the fully-linked system, it even performed well at a track day I took the RT to.

ABS - yes.

You will get many people telling you that ABS is the invention of the deveil and will use their years of track expericance to try prove it is so. But if you want to ride on the road in the best and safest way then ABS is great. But with luck you will never know it's there, but like insurance and crash helmets you are very glad it's there when you need it. The same will also be said of the servo. Well if you have small hands which I suspect you might and don't work on an oil rig 14 hours a day you might be glad of the asistance. With my small hands (should have been a pickpocket) the benifit is I can get full on braking with just the tips of my fingers. As for the linked brakes, most people would not know they were unless they were told. You use them just the same way as any other bike.

sarah...don't know if you read the post-fest regarding the pros and cons of abs on the roadster a couple of weeks ago, but be sure you go back and read it. the bottom line is that after you take all the emotion and science out of the equation, the evo servo assisted abs system is there to make your side safer....period. i would buy abs again, and will. i just personally don't care for a fully integrated system, but i would take it over nothing.

Sarah,
I would definitely go with ABS, if I had it to do all over again. A few weeks ago, I was riding with a Harley buddy of mine. We had swapped bikes, so I was on his, he on mine. A big rig truck turned left in front of him and another car, we were on a hiway doing 60 or so. I was behind, so I saw the whole thing. He grabbed a handful of brake and safely brought the bike to a quick stop, no skidding, just a nice, safe, quick stop. When we stopped a few miles up the road to switch back, he commented to me that if it wasn't for those brakes, he would be toast right now. He told me he was glad he was on my bike and not his. He mentioned that his bike would not have stopped nearly as fast and most likely he would have had to lay it down or worse. I am a firm believer in them.

I choose a black R1150R in february because of the ABS. My last bike, a R1100RS didn't have it, I couldn't miss it anymore.
The coupled brakesystem? I don't have any remarks on it, it's only coupled when you use the front-brake.
I drive troughout the whole year so when it's wet you will appreciate teh ABS more. The ABS saved me once when it rained, just a stupidity of mine...

Oh God, get ready for it...








(I'd get ABS again, but I'd rather it not be servo assisted.)

Powerful brakes that react more quickly to loss of traction than is humanly possible? That's what I wanted on my street bike and that's what I got. These brakes work very well. The reasons against them tend toward fantasy: "It would ruin my skills" - Nonsense. No one hammers the brakes every time they use them just because the system will sort it out - OK maybe the people who say this would do that, but at least they know they are maniacs. I have never had the ABS engage in 10k miles, but I have done a couple of very hard stops.

These brakes are much better than those on my truck, but then I do not ride the bike in snow.

The rear wheel will lock up at parking lot speeds when I use only the foot pedal.

They are more complicated to work on, but I hate bleeding brakes anyway.

One concern is failure rate, and that should be an available number that can be compared to non-ABS reliablity.

ABS

What leno said.

I have not needed it yet, but I am glad I have it. You just never know. I am just an average rider, but I think the brakes on this bike are awesome.

However, the subject is like a religious debate around here.

All I know is that I saw a demonstration at the BMW open house in Woodcliff Lake, NJ three years ago. A professional rider showed how much better he could stop under wet road conditions with ABS than without. They also tried it with hay on the road and stuff like that. Again, even a pro stopped better with ABS. Was it a scientific, double-blind test? No, but a blind test would be hard to do on a motorcycle!

Definitely ABS. It's why I chose the Beemer over a Triumph Speedmaster, Triumph Speed Triple or HD Sportster when I was researching bikes.

As a novice rider with 15 months of riding experience, I feel more comfortable having a system that helps me from time to time. Having said that, ABS is not a replacement for sound braking techniques. So I use the skills I was taught on my safety course, knowing that ABS is there to help me avoid trouble under certain conditions.

Well...

You sure got a quick response from some of the ABS proponents!

Some of whom are real quick to bash those who favor non-ABS systems...

The pros and cons of ABS are well presented in the other thread mentioned. If you want to look at it you can link to it here, Sarah:

http://r1150r.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=1578

The problem with the proponents of ABS/EVO who take to bashing those who don't care for BMW's ABS/EVO system is that they consistently miss the real point of those who are anti-BMW ABS/EVO...

It's not the ABS that is the problem, it is the EVO-linking and Servo/Pump-Assisted part of the sytem that is the problem. Other brands have wonderful ABS systems, that are literally transparent to the rider. Why? Because they don't use servo-assist...

Servo-assisted braking is an answer to a question nobody asked... If it were somehow vastly surperior to a non-pump assisted ABS system you would see many other major manufacturers jumping on the servo-assisted bandwagon... but you don't.

But let's look at this from a strictly practical standpoint.

1.) There is a significantly higher cost to purchase BMW's ABS/EVO, without a significant gain in resale value.

2.) The system is complex, difficult to diagnose or troubleshoot if there is problem, and significantly more expensive to maintain.

3.) If you do have any component fail in the ABS system it's all wonderful if the bike is still in warranty... But if it is out of warranty and you have a major failure it can cost as much as $3,000 to repair.

4.) If it fails while you are riding the bike you will suddenly have greatly reduced braking capability.

5.) You have almost no brakes with the ignition off on ABS/EVO equipped BMW's. This can be problematic for more than just rolling the bike around in the garage.

6.) BMW's ABS/EVO has a fundamentally different "feel" than the braking systems on other motorcycles. Even proponents of the system know it feels "grabby" and sudden.

7.) It's really hard to make any reasonable case for linked brakes on a motorcycle, and if you become dependent on the linked feature you will find yourself in a bit of a pickle if you take a ride on a motorcycle not so equipped. Do you really want to have to find yourself suddenly having to "think" about using the rear brake pedal if you ride anotehr brand of motorcycle?

8.) If you have an ABS/EVO failure far from home, what do you do?

There's more, but I think you get the idea...

In a nutshell...

ABS = Good

EVO-linked-servo-assisted = Bad

Of course, it's your money, and you take your choice.

Cheers!

Dallara

Had 14 bikes over 37 years. Both the Roadster and the K-RS had partially linked EVO ABS. Not a bad system and worked well every time (but one) that I used it.

The only on road, multi-vehicle accident I ever experienced on a motorcycle involved an ABS failure.

When I bought my latest R1150GS Sport, I was pleased to NOT have EVO-ABS on it.

If I buy the K1200R, I will weigh the decision very carefully whether to add ABS or not.

I have grown more to Dallara's way of thinking in the past several months.

Had 14 bikes over 37 years. Both the Roadster and the K-RS had partially linked EVO ABS. Not a bad system and worked well every time (but one) that I used it.

The only on road, multi-vehicle accident I ever experienced on a motorcycle involved an ABS failure.

When I bought my latest R1150GS Sport, I was pleased to NOT have EVO-ABS on it.

If I buy the K1200R, I will weigh the decision very carefully whether to add ABS or not.

I have grown more to Dallara's way of thinking in the past several months.

I wasn't going to reply on this topic, but since I echo Dallara's completely on this and he so eloquently covered the various points, I'll just say: "what he said". I owned a Yamaha FJR with abs, and that made me a believer in abs, but the linked/servo version on beemers is not for me.

Sarah,

I don't have ABS on the used 2002 R that I purchased and am plenty happy with the brakes--they are extremely powerful and easy to use. I probably ride more carefully without the ABS.

Dallara and others--Please correct me if I'm wrong, but according to all of the BMW literature and our local BMW dealers, EVO has nothing to do with ABS, but is just the next generation (from the 1100s) of BMW brakes. I have heard that the caliper part of the system was redesigned and the front discs are much larger. I have read nothing that leads me to believe that EVO has anything to do with ABS and have been told that my nonABS bike has EVO brakes

THANKS!
GOOD LUCK SARAH
Mike

Dallara wrote: In a nutshell...
ABS = Good
EVO-linked-servo-assisted = Bad
Of course, it's your money, and you take your choice.
Cheers!
Dallara

And not to be a dingle, but...

Dallara wrote:Well...

Some of whom are real quick to bash those who favor non-ABS systems...

Mr. Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle.

Dallara wrote: The problem with the proponents of ABS/EVO who take to bashing those who don't care for BMW's ABS/EVO system is that they consistently miss the real point of those who are anti-BMW ABS/EVO...

It's not the ABS that is the problem, it is the EVO-linking and Servo/Pump-Assisted part of the sytem that is the problem. Other brands have wonderful ABS systems, that are literally transparent to the rider. Why? Because they don't use servo-assist...

Just to be up front, I'm not trying to be a jerk or start a fight. I'm just trying to point out some inconsistencies. In the link you provided to our other discussion, you did not differentiate the ABS from servo/linking until VERY late in the argument. Until then you had exclusively lumped them together and offered a plethora of "reasons" why ABS was bad. Now you're singing a new tune (ABS=Good)

I don't think changing your tune is a bad thing, but I do think it is very two-faced to hammer on others for something you are very clearly guilty of. That being said, I agree with you 100%. A servo-assist braking system has some major setbacks, while a transparent ABS system is very desirable. On a bike that only offers ABS with servo-assist and linking...

...well that decision can only be made by the individual.

MikeC wrote:Sarah,

Dallara and others--Please correct me if I'm wrong, but according to all of the BMW literature and our local BMW dealers, EVO has nothing to do with ABS, but is just the next generation (from the 1100s) of BMW brakes. I have heard that the caliper part of the system was redesigned and the front discs are much larger. I have read nothing that leads me to believe that EVO has anything to do with ABS and have been told that my nonABS bike has EVO brakes

THANKS!
GOOD LUCK SARAH
Mike

I believe you are correct, I don't think EVO has anything to do with Linked, servo's, or the ABS. I think...

dallara...your points are well taken, again, and again, and again....so then why am i not convinced?
a. i never bought a bmw to save a few bucks..or i'd be on a yamaha or some other jap bike.
b. what do you do when you have any kind of breakdown far from home? call roadside service of course.
c. we're all 100 times more likely to be in an accident due to operator failure than abs-servo failure or whatever.

fact is, i had almost succumbed to your notions about this system...until i saddled up ol' silver and blasted him through a very twisty and treacherous test course this last weekend.
outcome: i love this frigging brake system.
i've found that almost always i get better results when i "WORK WITH A SYSTEM, AND NOT AGAINST IT".
this being said, i hope these threads continue....i get a big chuckle everytime i read a subject with "abs" in the title.

I don't want to turn this into a full-blown debate like the previous one, but I do want to ask some questions here of some who have made, shall we say... *interesting* claims and statements...

For instance, BobFV1 said:

I feel that riding fullly loaded 2up the ABS is a major advantage.

Why, Bob?


And then leno stated:

But if you want to ride on the road in the best and safest way then ABS is great.

"Best" and "safest"? Care to provide any documented proof of those claims, leno?


And then we madbinkster saying:

the bottom line is that after you take all the emotion and science out of the equation, the evo servo assisted abs system is there to make your side safer....period.

I can understand wanting to take the "emotion" out of the "equation", but do you really want to take the "science" out of it?

And again, can you provide any documented proof that BMW's ABS/EVO system makes "your side (sic) safer"?

That sounds like a emotional claim to me...


And gelbe Kulter has my favorite:

The reasons against them tend toward fantasy

Really? Do you honestly think the reasons I outlined against BMW's ABS/EVO system are "fantasy"?

Gelbe, you also make a claim or two that have no verifiable proof...


Then rdsmith3 said:

All I know is that I saw a demonstration at the BMW open house in Woodcliff Lake, NJ three years ago. A professional rider showed how much better he could stop under wet road conditions with ABS than without. They also tried it with hay on the road and stuff like that. Again, even a pro stopped better with ABS. Was it a scientific, double-blind test? No, but a blind test would be hard to do on a motorcycle!

Answer me this rdsmith3 (Bob)... Was that "professional rider" there at a BMW sponsored open house there to promote BMW's ABS/EVO braking system?


Gord's actually had the only unemotional, measured, and reasoned response to why someone might choose ABS, and in my mind he may have chosen wisely given his reasons.


But then guest again offered this up:

dallara...your points are well taken, again, and again, and again....so then why am i not convinced?
a. i never bought a bmw to save a few bucks..or i'd be on a yamaha or some other jap bike.
b. what do you do when you have any kind of breakdown far from home? call roadside service of course.
c. we're all 100 times more likely to be in an accident due to operator failure than abs-servo failure or whatever.

fact is, i had almost succumbed to your notions about this system...until i saddled up ol' silver and blasted him through a very twisty and treacherous test course this last weekend.
outcome: i love this frigging brake system.
i've found that almost always i get better results when i "WORK WITH A SYSTEM, AND NOT AGAINST IT".
this being said, i hope these threads continue....i get a big chuckle everytime i read a subject with "abs" in the title.

If you wish to pay 10-15% more for the same motorcycle to get ABS/EVO and its complexity, maintenance cost and hassle, and inherent "grabbiness" then who am I to try to convince you otherwise?

And perhaps you do simply call roadside assistance, but... What if you are outside of cell phone range? Or an ABS/EVO system failure causes you to crash? Or the nearest BMW dealer is 600 miles away, and maybe a whole state away (as happened to R1200LT rider on another forum...)?

And can you provide me any documented proof that "we're all 100 times more likely to be in an accident due to operator failure than abs-servo failure or whatever"? Are you sure it's not 1000 times more likely, or is it just 50 times more likely, or is it 329.73291783 times more likely?

And doesn't that have a tremendous amount to do with the skill level, training, experience, etc. of the rider?

If you feel that BMW's ABS/EVO is a panacea for all the world's ills regarding motorcycling, more power to you, but why is it that so many ABS/EVO proponents feel it necessary to both condemn those who don't care for it, and to try and convince everyone else on earth that they should have it?

Just curious...

Cheers!

Dallara

Sarah,

To try to get a better response, I'd suggest you PM those members of the board whose past posts lead you to feel a certain trust and appreciation of their wisdom. That gets your question out of the post flame war arena and focuses a more direct conversation on your interest.

Hope your decision comes easily when the time comes.

M