problem with starting

[redwing]

Hey all,
I didn't do a search because I was not sure what to look for. So here is the problem.

I turn the key on and switch the kill switch to "on" (gas side of the handle bar).... hit the button and nothing happens, nothing. Perhaps I am crowding the power-up routine where the caution lights come on then off but will that cause the bike not to start? This problem has been intermittent and first showed at six hundred miles. I killed the motor at a stop sign and rocked the bike once or twice where it started. Now it happens maybe once in every ten starts. And two or three at a time.

It happened twice at the dealership and they said it was a specific problem in the electronics. Should be covered in the warranty.

Something I do that seems to get me around the problem is I push the bike in gear with clutch out. I just bump or rock the bike jarring the insides of the motor. I think it is a compression lock...is that possible?

After the bike starts no problem with running.

Your thoughts please...

Robert

[ContraMoto]

Does it do it in all start settings...?

- Neutral, clutch out, stand up(down)
- Neutral, clutch pulled, stand up(down)
- In gear, clutch pulled, stand up

... or only in certain settings...?

[mogu83]

I don't think it's a "they all do it situation" as I don't recall anyone ever having a problem like this. I would stay all over the dealer on this one, and push the fact that it's a safety issue.
I assume by compression lock your referring to a hydrostatic lock condition where fluid gets inside the cylinder and locks the engine up, your problem doesn't sound like that.
It's most likely electrical as the starting circuit has to go through a bunch of switches to start the engine.
Try holding the clutch in, hitting the sidestand (up position) with your foot, jiggling (is that a word) the shift lever. If any of that helps tell the tech that works on your bike.

[creamora]

I am religious about letting the power-up sequence complete before starting.

Hopefully the shop's diagnostic readout will show something on the issue that will allow it to be resolved. Please report back.

[deilenberger]

It's not clear what's happening:

- Key on, are there lights? If so - the ignition lock is working

- Key on, no lights? I'd be sniffing around the battery

- Key on, lights, press starter button - nothing happens? Anything odd displayed on the cluster (like EWS)?

- Key on, lights, press starter button - engine cranks but doesn't start? I'd pull the plugs to see if the problem is electrical or fuel related (wet plugs = electrical, dry plugs = fuel..)

Random Comments:
-----------------------
The rocking it in gear can jar the engine a tad. Even though the starter is NOT engaged with the engine, in the case of a starter with a bad commutator - this can sometimes jar it enough that it will make contact and work again. Not totally uncommon on BMW cars. The Valeo starter we have isn't a paragon of goodness.. (there is a Bosch that can replace it..)

I know the MSF teaches using the "kill" switch to stop the engine, and it's probably a GOOD IDEA since you will then automatically reach for it if the bike happens to decide to lay on it's side with the engine running.. but, dunno if that switch is up to repeated regular use. Just dunno. I wasn't MSF trained originally (dirty bike trained.. we just stalled the things..) so I don't stop the engine that way. Dunno if it's related, but you might try using the key to stop the engine and see if the incidents stop or decrease in frequency.

[Dauntless]

I have had instances in which I would press the start button but for some reason it would not immediately start. It would crank for a few seconds but not start. After I released the button following the failed start attempt, I would immediately try to start the bike again. This time nothing would happen. I would release the button and then immediately try again and then it cranks and starts. I think the start button is infrequently intermittent.

[Bob Ain't Stoppin']

I'm gonna risk sounding like an idiot here, butt! I trust you are aware that the kill switch is a center run, and either left or right kill thing. So if you push the switch to either side, you're not gonna start. Other than that, the above posts cover your possibilities.

[redwing]

The bike is always
kick stand up...clutch in..in first gear... lights are on...but nothing. The motor does not turn over..nothing. It is like I have turned the key "on" but have not pushed the start button.
My bike is almost never in neutral.

kill switch is inn center.... and the response is as if the battery is disconnected... nothing.
I have noticed the yellow triangle is "on"...left side of the speedometer. Page 24 of my owners manual. I think the yellow triangle is normal at starting and always goes off after the bike idles for 30 or 40 seconds.
I haven't noticed anything on the EWS side but I'll look for that next time the problem comes around.

The only time the yellow triangle warning light came on and didn't go off I found the connection (an electrical plug) just in front and above the left cylinder had come loose. I think it is part of the electronic fuel system. I am aware of the problem and reconnect it when it comes loose. But even with this plug disconnected the bike still starts.

I read somewheres that rocking the bike is a solution to a problem that sounds like mine...I am not sure that rocking has any affect but it helps me not panic. I think the writing was about V-twins, perhaps even vintage V-twins.

I have turned the key "off" then "on" and had the bike to start but used this method several months ago.

I hope I've touch on all the responses ... Thanks All.

Robert

[deilenberger]

The bike is always
kick stand up...clutch in..in first gear... lights are on...but nothing. The motor does not turn over..nothing. It is like I have turned the key "on" but have not pushed the start button.
My bike is almost never in neutral.

OK, just as a test - try starting in neutral. There are three inhibiting switches/circuits on the R12R..
1. Sidestand switch, inhibits the starter from turning IF the bike is in gear, and the clutch isn't pulled in and the sidestand is deployed.
2. Clutch switch, inhibits the starter if the bike is in gear, and the sidestand is deployed.
3. Transmission switch, inhibits the starter if the clutch isn't pulled in, if the transmission is in gear. It also will kill the engine if you put the bike into gear with the sidestand deployed.

So - there's a lot of stuff going on, and the failure of ANY one can result in the starter not turning.

As a WAG - since the lights come on, your ignition switch is probably OK, and we'll hope your battery is OK since when they die, they usually stay dead. If I had to WAG - a misadjusted clutch switch might be the problem. That's something where the GS-911 could come in handy, since it can monitor the "state" (open/closed) of all these controls.

To see if it's the clutch switch - put the bike in neutral. Then it ignores the clutch switch, and sidestand switch.

kill switch is inn center.... and the response is as if the battery is disconnected... nothing.
I have noticed the yellow triangle is "on"...left side of the speedometer. Page 24 of my owners manual. I think the yellow triangle is normal at starting and always goes off after the bike idles for 30 or 40 seconds.
I haven't noticed anything on the EWS side but I'll look for that next time the problem comes around.

The only time the yellow triangle warning light came on and didn't go off I found the connection (an electrical plug) just in front and above the left cylinder had come loose. I think it is part of the electronic fuel system. I am aware of the problem and reconnect it when it comes loose. But even with this plug disconnected the bike still starts.

I read somewheres that rocking the bike is a solution to a problem that sounds like mine...I am not sure that rocking has any affect but it helps me not panic. I think the writing was about V-twins, perhaps even vintage V-twins.

I have turned the key "off" then "on" and had the bike to start but used this method several months ago.

I hope I've touch on all the responses ... Thanks All.

Robert

Good luck with it, and let us know the results!

[jess]

I often (as in once in every five starts or so) pull the clutch too soon after putting the kill switch to the "run" position. It seems in these cases that the on-board computer missed the fact that I pulled in the clutch, and so doesn't think it's in the correct starting position. Thus, pressing the starter button does nothing -- no sound, no starter, no nothing.

In all cases, letting out the clutch and pulling it back in will allow the bike to start. Don't know if that's what's happening to you, but it's worth a shot.

I have turned the key "off" then "on" and had the bike to start but used this method several months ago.

I've had this happen maybe twice, where no matter what I did (clutch in and out and in and out) the starter wouldn't engage. I turned off the ignition switch and turned it back on and it fired right up.

[xprof]

OK, I must be missing something, or there's something I don't know. I've been riding since dirt was invented, and I have always started in neutral (except when the engine dies at a stoplight). Is there a reason NOT to start in neutral? And a related question: why use the "kill" switch at all, except in fall-downs? Why not just turn off the key when you've finished riding?

[Ric]

I am religious about letting the power-up sequence complete before starting.

Hopefully the shop's diagnostic readout will show something on the issue that will allow it to be resolved. Please report back.

You don't have to wait. It's perfectly fine to turn the ignition key on and hit the starter while all the electronic checks are in process. Says so right in the owners manual. I do it all the time.

[websterize]

You don't have to wait. It's perfectly fine to turn the ignition key on and hit the starter while all the electronic checks are in process. Says so right in the owners manual. I do it all the time.

Well … it's perfectly fine if all your systems are Go.

"The instrument cluster runs a test of the instruments and the telltale and warning lights when the ignition is switched on: this is the Pre-Ride-Check. The test is aborted if you start the engine before it completes." 2008, UK manual, p. 67

Me, I don't mind waiting the two seconds it takes for the pre-ride check to do its thing.

[Faylo]

Maybe, the on-board computer (OBC?) is seeing an important sensor in 2 different states during the boot up sequence? i.e. Turning the key and pulling in the clutch at the same time? The OBC may be making multiple checks of the sensors, and if a sensor is not giving consistent states, that sensor is ignored for the remainder of this run cycle. Turning the key off-on resets this.

Just a thought.
-jim

[Rolando33]

Did you get the warranty done on the antenna ring recall?

[redwing]

Starting in neutral limits the number of sensors involved ... I'll give that a try Don ... thanks

Did you get the warranty done on the antenna ring recall?

I missed the antenna ring recall.... what's this about..thanks

xprof ... I like leaving the bike in gear when parked because I think it gives the bike more stability... also putting the bike in neutral is done with my left hand ... I got a bum leg (left) ... and using the kill switch is recommended by the MSF but using the key is ok by me and I'll do that so as to bypass a possible faulty kill switch.

jess ... it sounds like we have a similar issue but perhaps not identical ... thanks...the bike's so dependable I expect it never to fail.

I'll have to watch but I think my bike doesn't crank until the on board computer is through checking... maybe that is part of the problem.

The problem is not a hard fail and only perhaps ten times since May 09' but probably 3 in the past month.. My main worry is getting stuck somewhere with a hard fail and it seems to be drawing to a head.
My car (I think most cars have an error register) has an error register where a tech can use a device to get a read on the error message when a sensor is failing and so lead to a fix. Does the R1200R have a computer hookup where a computer can give an error message relating to the specific sensor? Seems right and we do have a canbus system.??

Thanks All

Robert

[jess]

And a related question: why use the "kill" switch at all, except in fall-downs? Why not just turn off the key when you've finished riding?

Muscle memory. The MSF courses (among others) teach new riders to use the kill switch to shut off the bike every single time. The theory goes that by going through the kill switch sequence over and over again, it will be automatic during that one moment when you're in a panic.

I like this theory a lot, and make it a point to use the kill switch every time I switch off the engine and again as part of my start-up sequence.

[mogu83]

Their's a few things that the MSF teaches that I find puzzling - now I have another one.

[jess]

Their's a few things that the MSF teaches that I find puzzling - now I have another one.

It works for me. On the few occasions that I've crashed or dropped a running bike, I hit the kill switch without even thinking about it.

[ContraMoto]

there are some threads at advrider where people note problems with the GS by using the kill switch all the time. Folks have reported intermittent starting sequence issues when using kill switch.

I kill the motor by dropping the kickstand and then turning the ignition off. Not sure if that's best, but it keeps me from starting to get off with the stand up (which I did once).

I think MSF has the right idea about the kill switch. Only reason I don't use it is, again, the problems reported by GS owners.