Another ABS question

[Dr. Strangelove]

For a novice rider, for whom safety is paramount, would you consider lack of ABS on a RR as a dealbreaker?

I would not under any circumstances consider a car without ABS, but should that mindset carry over to an RR?

thanks

John

[machew01]

If, as you say, safety is paramount, get a bike with ABS. However, even after having ridden that ABS bike 100,000 miles, if you get on a motorcycle without ABS, you will again be a novice rider. A successful emergency braking episode on a non-ABS bike requires regular practice under a variety of conditions. Good luck with your selection and your riding!


mac

[JCsman]

I second what machew01 says.

I hardly qualify as one of the skilled riders in this community so this is my first plunge into the dark arts of ABS.

I've read with real interest the ABS debates. Casting aside issues like linked-ABS, cost, weight, and complexity one factor has become clear to me. The anti-ABS side is heavily weighted towards the most skilled, aggressive and track day oriented riders.

Many years ago I read an article about an early automobile ABS system. The author said they stopped marginally shorted with the non-ABS car. But then the author went on to add something like, "But when a kid darts in front of your car on a slick road, who, besides Dan Gurney, won't lock up the brakes?"

I have little doubt that the best riders on the forum would be better off without the ABS system. I have NO doubt I am better off with it. But I do admit I should be practicing more (who should not) and I do worry about skills atrophy as noted above.

My $0.02 - leaving me WAY overdrawn at this bank.

[leno]

It should not be a deal breaker. Thousands of riders have managed without ABS for years. But it's like helmets the one time you do use it in anger you will be very please you have it. I like having the ABS because I ride in all weathers on all conditions of roads. Right now it's wet, dark, cold and greasy. The few sport bikes left on the road seem very nervouse, and so would I without the fab powerfull ABS.

[bIFF007]

I would not consider it a deal breaker. I do have ABS, and it is nice to have, but the brakes with the ABS are a bit more touchy, and take a little getting used to. The brakes ABS, or non ABS are very good on the R, and my major concern when I have to hit the brakes hard is the car behind me.

[Dr. Strangelove]

The reason this comes up is because the used bikes with ABS seem to sell at a real premium; sometimes as much a $2k more on a 2004 model. That's quite a chunk. I suppose this is a decision only I can make, but I certainly appreciate the input of the "cognescente."

But if anyone knows of a 2004 RR, any color, with ABS, heated grips, cases and a low seat, in the low 8000's, I sure am interested. It seems that there were a few of those that appeared on this board last winter, but they are non existent so far this winter.

John

[silverr]

My take is absolutely get abs! Cars went for years without them and are now much safer with them. Same goes for bikes, unless ur a track racer, get abs.

IMHO

[DJ Downunder]

Unless money is an issue...

For me I could only just afford the RR without ABS...with ABS put it out of my price range...plus ongoing maintenance costs more.

If anything goes wrong with it and you're out of warranty..sheeh!...it will cost megabucks to fix.

DJ

[wncbmw]

Lets see if I can get in on the first page of what is sure to be a 15-page thead!

There is something to be said for your first bike being non-ABS in order to learn how to use the brakes properly. But that is only viable if you are willing to dedicate yourself to actually practicing panic stops and other braking techniques.

ABS is not magical. I got it because, like someone said, while I do practice, if I had to panic stop on a greasy or wet road, it is nice to have a little extra insurance to keep me from locking it up and going down. Only one prevented crash, even a minor one, could pay for the extra $$. It makes no difference at all in how I ride and in two years, it has never come on, except when I was practicing and made it come on.

No argument with the cost of repair after warranty. I would hope catastropic failures are rare!

If I was shopping on a budget, I would skip the ABS rather than not get the bike.

[Biff's R]

If I was shopping on a budget, I would skip the ABS rather than not get the bike.

Absolutely!

[Gord]

For a novice rider, for whom safety is paramount, would you consider lack of ABS on a RR as a dealbreaker?

I would not under any circumstances consider a car without ABS, but should that mindset carry over to an RR?

thanks

John

ABS is a passionate topic for any of us who have hung around this board for long enough.

But it is something worth talking about - again and again. Just to garner the experiences of those who have it, and those who don't. So that those needing to make a choice can make an informed decision.

I am a new rider. Picked up my RR on May 7, 2004. My first road bike. Had ridden lots of dirt bikes and off road stuff, but never road on tarmac, surrounded by traffic until then.

Without getting into the relative merits of having an RR as a first bike (another passionate topic), I chose to get mine with ABS. My thinking was that given my relative inexperience at riding, I wanted some assistance to keep me from locking myself up and putting myself in harm's way. My twin brother - who has 20+ years of riding experience - thought I made a wrong choice. That being conditioned by ABS would prevent me from learning proper braking technique. And would hinder me if I ever moved to a non-ABS bike. There is merit in both arguments I think.

The truth is to date I have put on 18,000+ km on my bike. Have had a few instances where I was thankful for ABS. But I am convinced that good riding skills and proper attention renders the need for ABS unnecessary. But like life insurance, I am glad I have it.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Ok, I will up the ante on this topic.
I have been using as a source of "safety" information the "accident risk" rating on bikez.com. This is probably not any better than testimonials, but is is a number that purports to give relative safety ratings.
The RR gets an 86 -- don't know if this is with or without ABS, but it is a good number compared to other bikes ratings.
I noticed yesterday that the 2005 Bonneville got a 95-the highest number I've seen. I suspect that the real life on the road difference between an 86 and a 95 may be negligible. But, the Bonny does not have ABS.

I am 59. The wife-acceptance-factor (WAF) on any bike is marginal, but positive now. She doesn't want me to get killed, yet. I am not of an age that I want to hone my track skills, or lean in the twisties as much as the bike will allow. I want to ride safely, maybe long distance tour, ride around my home town (post Katrina New Orleans). I am also thinking that a well maintained RR might be the only bike I will ever own/ride because of my age. So, the lack of the experience of making mistakes and learning from them--which it appears would be afforded me without ABS--well, that seems to be a good thing.

Thanks for all the insights, people.

John

[camfarm]

Dr,

If you can't see where the numbers came from: scale, basis, precision, value, ordinal, cardinal, ranking whatever... then they are meaningless as any measure of safety.

I would suspect that for the Bonneville to rank that highly on any meaningful scale is simply a matter of how few there are on the road to measure. I have to start with an assumption that these numbers derive somehow from accident history data so are sensitive to numbers sold and ridden (and reported).

To your point. Motorcycle brakes are very good stoppers. ABS adds to that a single functional enhancement - it doesn't replace balance, friction, gravity or related braking variables in any way.

You can ride (and stop) safely without ABS. So, I wouldn't let it be a dealbreaker.

[Badger]

I have no doubt that ABS on the r offers a huge saftey benefit to all but the most expert riders out there, and it might even save an expert's bacon, at least in a straight up stop. Saved me one spring afternoon when I was tooling along route 355 in a rural part of frederick county MD and crested a rise only to see a mess in front of me.......I hit the front brake hard and stopped unbelievably fast...way faster than I could have on a Harley which I'm sure I would have had to lay down. ABS engaged, wheels did not lock up........had there been someone tail gating me the outcome might have been different as the bike stopped way faster than most cars could.

Now in a curve I would straighten the bike up before applying hard front braking.....not sure how things would work leaned over......

it's also true the abs brakes are grabby.......making it very easy to drop the bike if you grab the front handle when you're going very slow......in fact, if you park facing uphill on an incline and want to back the back out and down before starting out, leave the engine off and use the non-power assisted feature for slow maneuvering with your two feet......and stay off the front when doing it slow in parking lots and on gravel.....this is where the unlinked rear brake really proves handy........the front will drop you.....

so all in all....spring for the abs.......extra margin of safety is well worth the $$$ and the slow handling issues.

[Guest]

Get ABS if you can afford it, it might save your life. My ego has no value if I'm dead. Even some of the anti-ABS contingent on this board are admitting that BMW ABS is improving on new models. From what I hear it is already a transparent system with some other manufacturers.

Twenty years ago I'm sure it was difficult to find a car with ABS. I'll bet you that in ten years from now you will have a lot more choices with ABS on motorcycles. That fact dilutes arguements about loss of skills. It actually promotes the thought that riders who have experience with a variety of ABS systems are better suited for the future.

Can't fight new technology (unless you want to bury your head in the sand and think you've seen it all)!

Mike

[socalrob]

I very much suspect that the Bonnie's numbers are the result of the bonnie being a very moderate horsepower bike, I'm thinking 60HP or so. It is a decent handling standard bike, modern frame & modern brakes. The rider attracted to this type of bike is most likely not a squidly speed freak. The bike itself I'm guessing lends itself to being satisfying to ride at a more modest pace than a more "sporty bike". Therefore, the bonnie appears to be a very "safe" bike. And on top of that, the bonnie is pretty retro, so re-entry riders that at least have some riding experience are attracted to it, as well as expert riders that just want a more mellow bike that reminds them of their youth. I suspect that its really the rider makeup that makes the bonnie safer.

Any of the HD cruisers have about the same HP as the bonnie, but don't handle nearly as well. Also, HD's seem to attract alot of raw new riders that put on very few miles & never realy hone their skills. I suspect, without looking at your referenced website, that cruiser bikes are ranked pretty "safe" but most likely not as safe as the bonnie, as the bonnie is going to be better able to help you get out of a tight spot / mistake.

The bonnie is a very good new/re-entry bike, I almost went that route myself a couple of years ago. Pat on this board rides a bonnie right now, & is having fun with it.

Now, looking at the RR we have a bike of about 80 horsepower (faster), quite a bit more torque (more fun to gun it from a stop) than the bonnie, also considerably wider seat/bike (makes flat footing, walking manuevers a bit more difficult & dropping the bike a bit more likely), the RR is heavier than the bonnie by I'm guessing more than 50lbs, all of which makes the RR more of a handfull. Also attracts a somewhat more agressive type of rider that may be more prone to crashes. Also the RR is going to more fun to ride in the twisties, thus causing you to ride in the twisties, where mistakes can happen.

The RR is very fun to ride in the 6,000 rpm range, and very easy to knock up to 115mph indicated. Even though I consider it an "old man" bike to some degree (I'm 47), its got good kick & a good rider (not me) can embarass an average rider on a serious sport bike. Especially on real roads in the twisties.

The brakes on the RR are very, very good. From the riders here without ABS we hear very good things about the excellant brakes. Most riders hear with ABS also like the brakes very much. The servo system, while controversial, especially among more experienced riders, nevertheless gives huge stopping power that when coupled with the ABS will allow you to scrub off alot of speed in a panic situation. And thats what its really all about, in an emergency you can either avoid hitting something by evasive manuvers, or you can scrub off as much speed as possible before impact. The power ABS brakes will allow a novice to achieve near expert (very expert) levels of braking. Ride an RR w/ ABS, get her up to about 45, and grab hard on the front brake. If your not hanging on tight your going to feel like your about to be pitched off the front. The brakes are so much better than the bikes I rode in the 70's its hard to comprehend. Scrubing off speed is esential to survivability. You won't survive hitting a wall directly on at 60mph, but you could at 20mph. Since we normally are riding around much faster than 20, its important to be able to get down to a survivable speed before impact. That, I think, is where the RR w/ ABS can help a nedw or re-entry rider.

I test rode (a couple of times) the new BMW K1200S, 165 hp that hits 100mph in second gear (70 in 1st). While I don't see anything about the KS that makes it less safe than the RR, if a rider can't control the urge to speed ( & I can't sometimes), then the KS can easily be a death trap. And I'm sure if its listed on that web site, its listed as not as safe. Sedate riders arn't going to be buying the KS in droves.

I guess the deal with the RR is that its a very balanced bike for the real world, enough HP to have fun (and get you in some trouble), but not radically so, very nice handeling, very forgiving on bad pavement, very good brakes, just very good in the real world. A bike you can learn to explore at least somewhat of its potential without being insane. Remember, a slow bike is faster than a fast car. The RR, up to a speed of about 115, will blow by most any car, including exotics, on the road. If I remember right. 0-60 in under 4 seconds. So even though it could be called a "slow bike", theres alot there to have an exciting time, challenging your skills & nerves, & generally having the time of your life.

And at 59, you easily can have 3 bikes prior to getting the real old man bike, Honda Goldwing or BMW LT, either of which seem to be popular in with the plus 70 set.

[socalrob]

Dr. Strangelove,

That bikez.com is a great site. Tell you wife you need to buy a 2004 R1150R, the "safety" rating was a 95. (I don't think it really matters).

I looked up a HD Dynaglide Sport, a pretty decent HD, & its safety rating was 58. Not so good.

I looked up a Suzuki Hyabusa, at one time the fastest bike, (I read somewhere that they have a "halflife" of 6 months, but I think thats an exageration) and the safety rating was 78. WooHoo, I think I'm going to get one! Before, I thought they were a bit dangerous.

[Guest]

If, when you need ABS, you don't have it, it's too late to write the check.

[Boxer]

If, when you need ABS, you don't have it, it's too late to write the check.

You must be an insurance salesman! Always telling of how BAD it will be if we don't have it when we need it! Oooooo...I'm really scared, so I'll give you my money! That should PROTECT me.

[jimcameron]

If, when you need ABS, you don't have it, it's too late to write the check.

You must be an insurance salesman! Always telling of how BAD it will be if we don't have it when we need it! Oooooo...I'm really scared, so I'll give you my money! That should PROTECT me.

Insurance salesman? No.

Do I have insurance? Yes, homeowners, auto, cycle, boat, health and life.

The reason I have it is because someday I, or my family, might need it.

Do I ride with protective gear? Yes, helmit,(fullface) gloves, Stich, boots. Again, someday while riding I might need that equipment.

ABS? yes, could come in handy under some conditions. if I'm in one of those situations, hopefully it will be make a difference.

Do I always predict doom? I don't think so, but to new riders I always recommend the MSF courses, protective riding gear, and caution.

Do I encounter riders that may have an over inflated opinion of their riding skills which translates into sarcastic comments about safety equipment? Frequently.