Starting problem....

[Jeffreydas]

Hello All,

2002 r1150r, 47k. Dakar/Ferro

The starting is a bit dodgy, especially on cold mornings. Here are the particulars:
1) on very cold mornings (40 and below) the bike will not start. The sound of the starter will go from a wash out sound, similar to pressing the starter while the engines on, to just clicking (fast to slow) as if the battery needs to be charged, but... all my warning lights are a full glow as is headlamp which makes me think it is not a battery issue. - also when it gets warmer out the bike will eventually start.
2) on more milder mornings the bike will start but will sometimes stall under 2 conditions: First, it will stall almost immediately and then it is difficult to start again but eventually does with choke, and second in sometimes stalls when shifting from first to second gear
3) on occassion right after the bike turns over I'll hear an electrical pop, similar to the sound of touching negative and positive charged clamps together.

I took it to the local dealer for oil change and annual and told them about the problem but the weather was good and they did not encounter the starter problem, but they also were instructed not to take anything apart if they did not encounter starter issue.


I am throwing myself to the wisdom of the community.. what am I looking at here?


Namaste,

Jeffrey

[challey]

Shade-tree mechanic disclaimer: The advice you are about to get may be totally off base and is guranteed only to be worth every penny you paid for it.

Sounds to me as if you have two unrelated problems.

As far as the hard starting, what you describe is consistent with the behavior of a worn-out battery. It dosen't take much current to light the warning lamps and only very little more for the headlight. On the other hand, the starter needs a lot of current and has to overcome even more resistance in cold temps than when it's milder. You mention that the bike is a 2002 with 47k (miles? km? - the greeting of nemaste leads me to think you may be in India or elsewhere in south Asia, so probably km) on the clock. You don't mention if the battery is the original however. If it is, it certainly needs replacing at this point.

With regard to the stalling, keep in mind that what you are calling the choke is really a fast idle device that does not enrichen the fuel mixture. My first thought is that the culprit is the fuel filter which I think would produce the symptoms you describe. The manual calls for renewing the filter at 25k miles (~40k km) - was this done? If not, time to do this as well, regardless of whether the 47k is miles or kilometers.

Both of these are relatively easy and fairly inexpensive jobs that you could do yourself. There's lots of instruction on both in the archives.

I don't really have any thoughts on your 3rd complaint (the "pop"). Hopefully, some of the folks that actually know what they're talking about will chime in with more solid thoughts and suggestions on that as well as on my first 2 hypotheses.

Charlie

[towerworker]

+1 on what Charlie said. Your battery sounds like much of your problem.

In addition to that ---how old are the spark plugs? What weight oil are you running. Most guys run 20/50 but that can make for slow cranking when the temps are low. In cold weather you might want to consider 10/40.
You need a strong charging/ignition system to lite off a cold engine. Good battery, good plugs and wires. And as Charlie said--the fast idle lever needs to stay engaged for several miles at least or the engine will die at your first gear change or when you come to a stop.

Another thing to consider is the state of balance of the throttle bodies. A TB sync/valve adjust may be in order as well.

Most engines will run somewhat acceptably when warm regardless of the state of tune. Cold conditions bring out the gremlins.

Good luck!

Wayne

[Hawk]

Jeffrey,
Can you quantify how cold your mornings are, and what the daytime temps are? Might help us to diagnose the problem; but I third the sentiment on time for a new battery. I've had good luck with the Odyssey battery.

Mobil One carries a 0W-40 synthetic oil; not cheap but might be good for cold starting; Castrol has a 5W-40, a tad less expensive than the Mobil One but still a synthetic oil.

[Jeffreydas]

Thanks for the info... I am running on 20/50 and I'm not sure when the last time the battery was changed, but the plugs are fresh. I've had it serviced 4 times since last march, one 12k, one annual, oil change, and some service when in NYC. I'm sure i'v had fresh plugs put in in at least 2 of those times.

I'm not in India, but Charleston, SC. Cold mornings are high 20s to mid 40s. (no laughing northerners). Day temps mid 40s to mid 60s this time of year.

Is it it true I can run the fast idle while I ride? That's cool. And i assume the fuel filter is different than the one they change out every time the oil gets changed. I'm not sure if that was done on the 12k or annual. I'll have to check the service records.

But 2 things that seem evident if I want smooth running in the cold: new battery and different oil.
As of now, (having a warm spell) it starts fine. Im not due for an oil change until for a couple months, by then I could still go with same oil but definitely change the battery and get new fuel filter.

[Hawk]

Jeffrey, the fuel filter is inside the gas tank so it tends not to get changed too often; grades of fuels used plus luck can make a difference in the life of the filter; filling your tank at a station when the tanker is there topping off the underground tanks is A Bad Time to get gas there; all the water, silt and sludge gets stirred up by the fresh gas coming into the tanks.

Your temps are close to what we have here in Az and my Odyssey battery (about a year old now) handles morning starts just fine. If it's going to sit a few days I put a BMW charger on it to be safe.

[Boxer]

The "popping" sound is most likely the coil bridging from worn out insulation or worn out plug wires or both. This was happening to mine for months before the coil finally gave out and "popped" its final pop in Arkansas. Boxermania properly diagnosed mine over the phone, and that sent me to the dealer at Bentonville where the coil was checked and replaced. He can give a more technical explanation...if he ventures here.

My 3 year old PC-680 battery had expired just shortly before that incident as well, so I'm not so sure the coil/plug wire problem did not exacerbate the battery demise.

[CycleRob]

Jeffreydas,

Your battery is on the way out. It may be at the end of it's (rough?) service life and/or it is undercharged by the fact that . . . . . . .
You may also have a loose battery terminal. That POP you heard is the heavy current flow arcing across a poor connection, then vaporizing that poor connection's marginal contact area. I bet the lights went out right after the POP.

You'll need to lift the rear of, or fully remove the fuel tank so you can disconnect, clean and grease the electrical contact surfaces of the battery terminals. Also service the (+) battery terminal on the starter solenoid too. Remove the black (-) battery terminal first, then the red (+). The (-) terminal comes off 1st and goes on last because if you touch ground with the wrench on the (+) while the (-) is connected, it will create a very destructive short circuit. Parts will melt in a huge bang and a shower of molten metal and sparks. Not good!

After the connections are clean and tight, charge the battery. Be careful you do not exceed 15 Volts on a sealed type battery with whatever type charger you use. If it doesn't start the bike after several hours or overnite charging, order a new battery.

.

[MadrasGiaguari]

Dear friends,

I live in Roma, Italy, where the weather is nice allmost trough the full year (some cold in December and January, but not to cold).

My 2005 R1150R was running beautifully, without any remarkable problem. Last October (2008) at once the startup become a problem: this problem had nothing to do with outside temperature (may be humidity did some, but not in all the cases). It has to do with engine temperature: never occurs when the engine is warm. Only happens when the engine is off, let's say, for a few hours.

The starter runs strong and fast, but the engine does not start.

Sometimes after a continuous attempt of a few minutes (with some interruption of course) the engine makes one stroke, and at the next attempt it starts....beautifully; and then runs without any problem, till next stop of at least a few hours (till the engine is warm: no problems).
I noticed that it could be a litlle better if, instead of a continuous attempt, I do short trials (same story: one stroke, and next starts).
Sometimes, it just does not start: two times I had to call the tow truck.... MISERABLE!

From October to January, I had to take the bike to BMW Roma (largest BMW service in Italy: hundreds of bikes) 4 times(!):
-first time, they said that the problem never occurred while they had the bike: they tried to show me how to start a motorcycle, altough I drove any kind of bike in the last 50 years (I'm 60).... Anyway, they putted a new (BMW) battery;
-the problem was still there, so I took it for the second time: they made all checks with the electronic diagnosis system: no problems; they changed the fuel filter (the bike has allmost 40000 Km) and the plugs.
-few reasonable weeks (would not start normally, but at the end it would start) and then again the same problems: I had to call the truck to take the bike to the BMW service;
-they changed a very expensive think (about 300 dollars), just to try (they said), wich regulates the starting system, greased the starter, general check, electronic diagnosis, again.
-few weeks ok, and then again did not start properly. So I took it to the BMW service on the 2nd of Jnauary, and told them I don't want the dam bike back unless it is again a BMW bike, and not a ganblink think............. They said that they will call me when they feel shure that all is ok. I asked them to ride the dam bike and not just to do all these sophisticated electronic tests.
The bike is still there. We'll see.

I sent you this post just to tell you how things can go even without cold weather. Before the r1150r (that I love, anyway) I had a K75RT BMW for 17 years. Never had ANY problem.: it would start immmediately, even in very cold winter mornings, even when the bike was parked for 2 weeks in the outdor. Old technology.....

Ciao,
Angelo

[bakrmyounis]

Hi Guys,

Just got a 2002 R1150R, and I am having the same symptoms as Jerry

2) on more milder mornings the bike will start but will sometimes stall under 2 conditions: First, it will stall almost immediately and then it is difficult to start again but eventually does with choke, and second in sometimes stalls when shifting from first to second gear

The bike has 10K miles on it and always put premium fuel in it, on another thread people mentioned the TPS and to reset as a simple first troubleshooting step. I am going to do that and get back to you with results.

is this a known issue with these bikes or my bad luck

[milehighboater]

Can't speak everyone but I have been riding my R all winter here in colorado in tempratures as low as 10 degrees F and have never had a problem starting it. Luckly if it is a starter issue there isn't too much to them. I would really have the battery load tested. Even though there is 12v on the battery terminals that doesn't mean there is enough amperage to get the motor to keep turning over. If the voltage does drop during starting and the solenoid gets pulled in again you can get a loud pop. If you pull the battery out most auto parts stores will charge and load test the thing for free (and then try to sell you one). Once you get the bike consistanty chugging and trying to start and its still not starting, then start looking at the TBs and what have you... If the battery tests good try just jumping the solenoid and see if its a bad starter.