ABS or Non??

[wncbmw]

Gosh - I can't believe this has started again!

Sarah, I got ABS for one reason and one reason only - some day on a slick road or a dry road in a panic situation, it may help me keep the rubber side down! That's all. Not brake faster or better, just overcome the conditions or my ineptness! If it does that, then it has paid for itself. My ABS has gone unnoticed in 1 1/2 years of ownership.

I haven't used my pistol in 12 years with a carry license either; doesn't mean it isn't a good idea!

As to the complexity - well there is no argument a breakdown far from home would be more serious but I have to put some faith in the reliability of BMW or I wouldn't have bought it.

If simplicity was my only goal, I would still be riding my '75 90/6!

[socalrob]

I have a couple of questions regarding brakes.

1. - I have never ridden a bike with non servo assisted ABS brakes, so those of you in know may be able to help me. When I have had my 4x4 truck (with ABS power assisted brakes) a few times been on very slick mud (a near frictionless surface), if stomp on the brakes (hey what can I say, its fun to slide around) the truck will keep going, the ABS will cycle endlessly, but if I keep the brake pedal to the floor the power brake boost will keep preassure up in the brake system. I don't have to (nor should I) pump the brakes. BTW, ABS brakes in the dirt are not good (hence the GS's ability to shut them off) because on a near frictionless surface, which dirt can be, IMHO, it is better to lock the wheels up so that they tend to dig in (pushing a small ridge of dirt in front of them) to stop. A condition that will not likely happen on pavement. So my question is, on a non servo (or power) assited bike ABS system, how does the system maintain brake preasure if the ABS cycles many times? I always assumed (bad word I know) that this is the reason BMW put the servo assist in the system. Otherwise, it seems possible to me to pull hard on the front brake lever, have the ABS system "toss" brake prassure to the point the lever is hard against the grip & there is no brake preasure at all.

2. - On some new cars the brakes are computerized to the point that if the car senses the very fast release of the accelerator pedal & the fast & hard hitting of the brake pedal, the car will momentarily boost to maximum the brake preasure on the theory that this sequence of events indicates a "panic stop". Supposidly this is good for reducing by a few feet the braking distance. Some car manufacturers have decided all that extra complexity is worth the results. Shaving 5 ft. off a panic stop can be quite a difference if you are hitting a wall. So my question, is it possible BMW has put the servo assist on the brakes so that the time delay to maximum braking force is reduced by some fractional second time period, thus reducing braking distance? That may be the intended tradeoff for the "touchy" "grabby" brakes.

Has anyone seen a test of braking distances of ABS servo assist bikes v. ABS (with no boost) bikes? I would like to see a test of braking distances (say 70mph to 0, on both good & bad surfaces) on both ABS & non ABS R1150r's with a variety of rider skill levels, & a test of the Honda & Yamaha ABS & non ABS bikes the same way, & then see if there is any difference between the ABS & non ABS bikes, & between the various ABS systems.

For myself, & myself only, until I see a good test showing ABS lengthens braking distances for the notorious "average ability" rider, I will feel more comfortable with the ABS for panic situations.

Considering the few thousand RR owners that have cycled through this board, I have seen very few posts regarding the dreaded big $$ ABS failure / repair. Besides, for myself, I have some obnoxious extended warrenty that goes out to something like 84 months with unlimited mileage.

Also, to avoid any misunderstanding, the ABS system does not fail if the bike stalls, only if the electrical system fails. The battery alone, if not drained, will work the ABS system. The one rider on this board that told of an accident (or was it a near accident, I can't recall for sure) that resulted from an ABS "failure" had plenty of warning when his alternator belt failed, but he proceeded on after noticing the charging system warning light on. I would suggest that if the charging system light comes on while riding, you should expect possible brake failure (which is why I like this board, without that post, it would not have dawned on me either that the charging system warning light is so critical).

& I do practice braking the bike with the ignition off (electrics dead) (got to be sure I don't activate the steering lock!), I find the bike is stoppable, kind of reminds me of the crummy drum brakes of the early 70's.

In closing, I like the RR, I like its ABS brakes (servo & all, I like one finger braking, kind of like flipping off the world), & when I replace it I am leaning toward a R1200ST with ABS.

[dallara]

Optimus, Optimus, Optimus...

And not to be a dingle, but...

Such language... And in a thread started by a nice lady...

(just kidding...)


But then you had to go on to say...

Just to be up front, I'm not trying to be a jerk or start a fight. I'm just trying to point out some inconsistencies. In the link you provided to our other discussion, you did not differentiate the ABS from servo/linking until VERY late in the argument. Until then you had exclusively lumped them together and offered a plethora of "reasons" why ABS was bad. Now you're singing a new tune (ABS=Good)

Well... You can *TRY*, but you're not doing to good a job...

Personally, I don't like ABS all that much. I wouldn't buy a bike with it unless I had to, and I personally don't think it is near the mega-wonder-weapon some clamor so fervently that it is. You're a devoted follower of all things ABS because that's what you do for a living, which is fine and dandy.

I finally differentiated between ABS and Servo-Assist in the prior thread because the discussion headed that direction, not because I was "changing my tune" as you once again so erroneously assume...

Personally, again, I have *NEVER* found a single situation in my over 30+ years of riding motorcycles where I either needed, nor wanted ABS, servo-assisted or otherwise. I still can't find a good reason today, and you have yet to have convinced me otherwise (or to answer a plethora of questions I asked you, but you refused to ever answer... Wonder why?)

I don't have any problems with ABS systems that are completely *TRANSPARENT* to the rider, but unfortunately to get ABS on a BMW you have to get the servo/pump-assist right along with it, and BMW's system is *NOT* transparent to the rider... Instead it intrudes upon the rider every time he touches the lever or the pedal, from its "grabbiness" to its servo-whine.

If you want to go digging about for inconsistencies, I'm game, but I really don't think you want to as your posts in the previous thread were racked and madly populated with inconsistency after inconsistency, not to mention all sorts of backpedalling and attempts at ignoring all sorts of questions while literally demanding that I answer your questions...

BTW, to reiterate, I answered all your questions, while you still haven't answered many of mine... Wonder why?

And this little missive is a jewel:

I don't think changing your tune is a bad thing, but I do think it is very two-faced to hammer on others for something you are very clearly guilty of.

You have changed your tune considerably... and not just all along the way in the previous thread, but even here as well... Case in point:

That being said, I agree with you 100%. A servo-assist braking system has some major setbacks, while a transparent ABS system is very desirable.

This is *RICH*, as you certainly didn't agree with me in the previous thread, nor did you ever state in that thread that a servo-assisted system had *ANY* setbacks, much less major ones...

Seems you change your tune rather adeptly...

Just so you have it straight, I will spell it out for you, Optimus... S-L-O-W-L-Y and clearly...

1.) I don't like ABS.

2.) I don't feel I need ABS.

3.) I don't want ABS.

4.) I *REALLY* don't like BMW's ABS with Servo/Pump-Assist.

5.) I *REALLY* don't think I need BMW's ABS with Servo/Pump-Assist.

6.) I *REALLY* don't want BMW's BMW's ABS with Servo/Pump-Assist.

7.) I think Servo/Pump-Asssited brakes on a motorcycle are a really, really *STUPID* answer to a question *NOBODY* ever asked.

8.) I *REALLY* don't like linked brakes of any kind on a motorcycle.

9.) I *REALLY* don't feel I, or anyone else for that matter, needs linked brakes of any kind on a motorcycle.

10.) I *REALLY* don't want any kind of linked brakes on any motorcycle I own or ride.

11.) I *REALLY* think linked brakes of any kind on a motorcycle are an even *MORE STUPID* answer to a question nobody ever asked.

12.) I don't have any problem with an ABS system that is *COMPLETELY* transparent to the rider, though I don't want it.

13.) I don't think anybody in their right mind can say that BMW's ABS Servo-Assisted brake system is *TRANSPARENT* to the rider, and if they do, then they either haven't ridden much, or don't know how to use the brakes, or they simply never use the brakes *HARD*...

14.) I think that proponents of BMW's Servo/Pump-Assisted ABS brake system who jump up and declare that anyone even thinking of buying a BMW should automatically buy one with BMW's Servo/Pump-Assisted brake system *WITHOUT* mentioning the cost, no recouping of the initial cost at resale time, additional maintenance costs, stupifying complexity, problems and issues if the system fails, etc. are doing those they are trying to advise a great disservice.

Are we clear now? Do you think you have it?

OTOH, I think you are doing a wonderful job imitating a peni... Nope, nope, nope... I don't want to say that in a family thread...

One last thing, Optimus... You trotted out your resume' in the previous thread. Trust me, you might want to be careful doing that. You might have to compare it sometime...

Cheers!

Dallara

[Optimus Prime]

I have a couple of questions regarding brakes.

1. - I have never ridden a bike with non servo assisted ABS brakes, so those of you in know may be able to help me. When I have had my 4x4 truck (with ABS power assisted brakes) a few times been on very slick mud (a near frictionless surface), if stomp on the brakes (hey what can I say, its fun to slide around) the truck will keep going, the ABS will cycle endlessly, but if I keep the brake pedal to the floor the power brake boost will keep preassure up in the brake system. I don't have to (nor should I) pump the brakes. BTW, ABS brakes in the dirt are not good (hence the GS's ability to shut them off) because on a near frictionless surface, which dirt can be, IMHO, it is better to lock the wheels up so that they tend to dig in (pushing a small ridge of dirt in front of them) to stop. A condition that will not likely happen on pavement. So my question is, on a non servo (or power) assited bike ABS system, how does the system maintain brake preasure if the ABS cycles many times? I always assumed (bad word I know) that this is the reason BMW put the servo assist in the system. Otherwise, it seems possible to me to pull hard on the front brake lever, have the ABS system "toss" brake prassure to the point the lever is hard against the grip & there is no brake preasure at all.

Your squeezing of the brake will provide the hydraulic pressure needed to operate the brakes. I can think of a few reasons that BMW put servo-assist on their bikes, but I can't speak to their actual thought process. A servo assist ABS brake system is easier to design for a number of reasons, however it is nearly impossible to provide anywhere near the same "feedback" of a non-servo (pump) brake system.

2. - On some new cars the brakes are computerized to the point that if the car senses the very fast release of the accelerator pedal & the fast & hard hitting of the brake pedal, the car will momentarily boost to maximum the brake preasure on the theory that this sequence of events indicates a "panic stop". Supposidly this is good for reducing by a few feet the braking distance. Some car manufacturers have decided all that extra complexity is worth the results. Shaving 5 ft. off a panic stop can be quite a difference if you are hitting a wall. So my question, is it possible BMW has put the servo assist on the brakes so that the time delay to maximum braking force is reduced by some fractional second time period, thus reducing braking distance? That may be the intended tradeoff for the "touchy" "grabby" brakes.

Those systems actually sense a fast "off-throttle" and will prime the pads by "preloading" them while also setting the brake assist pumps to full on. The former actual moves the brake pads the fraction of an inch it takes to come in contact with the brake disc. The later gets everything set so that when you do actually touch the brakes they can go "full stop" before your foot is even 1/3 of the way through the pedal movement. As far as I know this is not part of the BMW system. The "grabbiness" of the BMW bike system is a result of the poor feel of the servo-system and the inherent sensitivety of a vehicle with such little mass and large brakes.

Has anyone seen a test of braking distances of ABS servo assist bikes v. ABS (with no boost) bikes? I would like to see a test of braking distances (say 70mph to 0, on both good & bad surfaces) on both ABS & non ABS R1150r's with a variety of rider skill levels, & a test of the Honda & Yamaha ABS & non ABS bikes the same way, & then see if there is any difference between the ABS & non ABS bikes, & between the various ABS systems.

Newer ABS systems will stop as fast as any human can on any road surface. There are tests out there, I don't have links handy. A lot of this is explained towards the back end of the link Dallara provided.

For myself, & myself only, until I see a good test showing ABS lengthens braking distances for the notorious "average ability" rider, I will feel more comfortable with the ABS for panic situations.

Older ABS systems, ones that allow full lock-up and then full-release, will take longer to stop. However most any system developed within the last 5 years does not work in this manner.

Considering the few thousand RR owners that have cycled through this board, I have seen very few posts regarding the dreaded big $$ ABS failure / repair. Besides, for myself, I have some obnoxious extended warrenty that goes out to something like 84 months with unlimited mileage.

It happens, just the same as tranny failure before 20K miles and such. The % are small however.

Also, to avoid any misunderstanding, the ABS system does not fail if the bike stalls, only if the electrical system fails. The battery alone, if not drained, will work the ABS system. The one rider on this board that told of an accident (or was it a near accident, I can't recall for sure) that resulted from an ABS "failure" had plenty of warning when his alternator belt failed, but he proceeded on after noticing the charging system warning light on. I would suggest that if the charging system light comes on while riding, you should expect possible brake failure (which is why I like this board, without that post, it would not have dawned on me either that the charging system warning light is so critical).

& I do practice braking the bike with the ignition off (electrics dead) (got to be sure I don't activate the steering lock!), I find the bike is stoppable, kind of reminds me of the crummy drum brakes of the early 70's.

In closing, I like the RR, I like its ABS brakes (servo & all, I like one finger braking, kind of like flipping off the world), & when I replace it I am leaning toward a R1200ST with ABS.

I still think it's an issue that the residual braking is so drastically reduced compared to the servo-assisted mode, but it's an issue I'm willing to live with for ABS. I can understand those who have a different set of values for such things.

[sgreer]

Mercy Sakes! Thanks everybody, but I'm still terribly ignorant. I've been looking at 2002-2003 models. Do those with ABS also have the Servo-Assist? My last BMW was an '83 R80RT, this new stuff is way over my head. Thanks for any clarification. Sarah

[dallara]

Yes, Sarah...

All BMW R-1150-R Roadster models equipped with ABS from their release date to present also have Servo-Assist.

Unfortunately, BMW has chosen not to offer ABS any other way on any of their more recent models. If you get ABS, you also get the servo/pump-assist.

Hope this helps!

Cheers!

Dallara

[Kevin50r]

I've never been in a situation where ABS would have made a difference. Out-riggers or training wheels on the other hand would have made a world of difference several times.

Still don't want them on my bike though!

Kevin

[fallingpines]

Both of my BMW's have ABS, my 04' 50R is there just in case I miss a beat at the wrong time, however I no fan of the complexity and the fact that I cannot do my own brake bleed. The ABS on my R60/2 has no such issues, who bleeds cable brakes anyhow? On the flip side however, that ABS system is shared with it's ASB system (anti stop brakes). It's good to have good brakes.

[Bones]

Sarah,
To the point.
To answer your question, NO. I bought the ABS version with servo assist. Ended up hating the servo assist AND had the ABS servo assist circuit fail on me once and that made me lose my confidence in the system. Especially when the BMW certified tech at the BMW dealer spent most of a day working on the bike and could find no problem. Gee, THAT is reassuring. I began wondering when the system would fail again, I might think I had servo assist brakes and find out the hard way that I didn't. So since the servo and or ABS couldn't be removed AND they couldn't find me the same bike with "normal" brakes (the BMW Evo NON servo assist are fantastic by the way) I ended up getting rid of the R that I otherwise loved. I considered other BMW models BUT essentially all of them come with that damned servo assist. BMW says you can get it without, but hell if you can find one shipped to the US.

Then, while irritated at all this, I decided that the allure of the Rondel and brand made absolutely no difference to me. I wanted a bike that would perform well and be reliable and spoke to me. Call em "Jap bikes" if you want, I like em.

Hope that provides some insight.

Bones

[sgreer]

So if I get ABS brakes I can't bleed/change out my own brake fluid? Why is that? Do the older R1100's have ABS without Servo-Assist? A buddy has a Suzuki V-Strom 1000 that will flat out scat. My husband thinks we should go test ride a 650 V-Strom. Sorry to keep pestering and thanks for all the help everybody. Sarah

[dallara]

Well, Sarah...

If you got a BMW R-1150-R with the ABS system you *could* actually bleed and change the brake fluid yourself... Sort of... *IF* you wanted to invest in the special tools necessary to do the brake servicing...

However, tehn you would not only have paid the extra $$$$ to purchase your bike with ABS, but would alos have the investment in the tools, and tehn have to take the time to learn how to use them.

If you do buy an R-1150-R with ABS (and notice I am *NOT* telling you not to - It is strictly your decision) it is best you left servicing the brake system to a BMW dealer who has a competent, well-trained, and experienced mechanic/technician who knows the system thoroughly.

If you decide you do want an R-1150-R without ABS, they are out there... After all, I found one - a 2002 in Atlanta Blue (the color I most wanted, but not because it is the fastest, sexiest, most alluring, most seductive color that also gets the best mileage... ) with only 1,302 miles on it and a year and half of warranty left - it just took a bit of time... In my case, about three months, but it was during the winter so I didn't really lose any riding time.

Please allow me to say this...

I, for one, would like to apologize to you for some of the direction this thread of your's turned. In my initial post in this thread I simply wanted to give some of the information involving the drawbacks to BMW's ABS Servo/Pump-Assisted brake system, as no one had done that previously in the thread. I used the term ABS/EVO because that's what BMW calls the system, and in no way intended to confuse you. For some reason I still cannot fathom, some owners revere BMW's ABS system as the Holy Grail, and think it is without fault or foible. Though it would be nice if that were true, it is simply not the case.

The system is overly complex. The system is expensive to purchase. The system is difficult and costly to maintain. The system does fail on some of the bikes, and when it does it can be at least disconcerting and cause some *VERY* anxious moments, and at the worst could have catastrophic ramifications. The system *HAS* failed on the bikes of several members of this board, so it is not nearly the rare occurrence some would want you to believe. The system is available only with linked braking, too, which is totally unnecessary. The system does not function when the engine is off. If the system does fail then you suddenly have *GREATLY* reduced braking capacity.

Each of these points is irrefutable.

Can the system actually stop you quicker? NO. It has yet to have been proven it can stop you any quicker than a skilled rider who knows how to use the brakes.

Can the system stop you with perhaps less drama and elevated heart rate in wet or slippery conditions? Possibly, but that depends greatly on your skill level. If your skills are highly developed, and you are well practiced with them, it is a bit of a toss-up. If your skills are not so highly developed, or you are a new rider, then it probably *CAN* and *WILL* stop you quicker and with less anxiety should you ever need to do a true "panic" stop... Only you can make the determination of your skill level, but remember, your skill sets and levels can be improved with training, research, and practice.

On the other hand, that one advantage that BMW's ABS has comes at a price, and one even more far reaching than the ones mentioned above - "grabbiness" and a distinct lack of braking feel.

Riders the world over stop their bikes, including panic stops, without ABS of any kind - wet or dry. Literally millions of riders stop their bikes without the BMW ABS system. Racers the world over careen around race tracks, wet or dry, hammering the brakes to the edge of lock-up, lap after lap, and do so without the all the ill-perceived wonders of ABS, much less servo-assistance.

Some tend to get wrapped up a bit too tight in BMW's marketing hype and fall for the grandiose promises of that hype. To me, that is a bit of a shame. BMW's ABS system may very well have some advantages, for *SOME* riders, but not necessarily *ALL* riders... And the those advantages may be worth the cost, complexity, maintenance headaches, possible failure scenarios, grabbiness, lack of "feel", etc. to *SOME* riders, but not to *ALL* riders.

If you honestly feel you would benefit from an ABS system, and want a BMW, then by all means purchase one with the system.

If you are concerned about any of the points I have addressed, and do not want to concern yourself with those drawbacks, then by all means get a BMW without BMW's ABS system.

The choice is up to you. I just simply wanted you to have the facts on *BOTH* sides of the argument/debate.

Cheers, and I honestly do hope this helps you in your decision.

Dallara

[beemer-biker]

So if I get ABS brakes I can't bleed/change out my own brake fluid? Why is that? Do the older R1100's have ABS without Servo-Assist?

Sarah,
You can change your own brake fluid, but it is sort of a pain. And, yes, the older 1100's have ABS without the servo-assist and without the linking of the brakes. I had an R1100RT with ABS, no servo's and linkage.
Personally, I like tha ABS, servo's or not. Just my opinion.

[leno]

Dallara is very clear that you don't like bmw's abs or any other moden development so my sugestion is that you strip the fuel ingection off and put a pair of carbs, dump the lights and put a couple of candle lantens on, take the teleleaver off and put some proper forks on, junk the panthingy spring and put a good old solid rear on and whilst you're at it take the air out of your tyres and fill them with sand and finally take the breaks off complety and just drag your feet to stop. When you have done all that you will not have to worry about it ever braking down.

Then when you are happy you might stop trying to drown everybody else in your reams of bumff.

[R1150R4ME]

I have read all the posts with deep interest.

This board has a wealth of information (and opinions). Prior to my purchase of my bike I also sought information. I scoured this board (and the RT board), I read all the information, tapped into manufacturers information, spoke to RT riders and ended up with a great deal of information. A simple matrix on the positive and negative gave me - and for me only, not the neighbour - a R1150R with ABS.

[dallara]

leno...

It's clear when you don't have a valid argument you resort to insults befitting a 12 year old, but in sake of mature discussion, let's hit your points one by one, shall we?

Dallara is very clear that you don't like bmw's abs or any other moden development so my sugestion is that you strip the fuel ingection off and put a pair of carbs...

While blatantly obvious your multiple misspellings were a vain attempt at humor, one would think you could at least take a shot at proper grammar. That said, you might be interested in knowing that fuel injection has been around nearly as long as carbs have...

dump the lights and put a couple of candle lantens on...

Hmmmm... Right. Guess that's why I just hung those PIAA driving lights and Hella foglights on my Beak, eh? Difference between adding those ligths and BMW's ABS system? They have clear advantages with no apparent disadvantages...

take the teleleaver off and put some proper forks on...

Various examples of swing-arm front ends have been seen on motorcycles since their beginning. They're nothing new, except perhaps to you...

And of course, I suppose you honestly believe that your telelever front end is vastly superior to those conventional forks on Valentino Rossi's Yamaha M-1 Moto GP bike, or those on all those Honda RCV-211's, right?

junk the panthingy spring and put a good old solid rear on...

Parallelogram rear ends to control shaft-jacking are nothing new, either. But then neither is ABS...

and whilst you're at it take the air out of your tyres and fill them with sand

Be kind of hard to do and maintain the necessary self-aligning torque in the tire, but that may be a bit beyond your scope of understanding... I take it you have tried out this sand thing in your sandbox at home?

and finally take the breaks off complety and just drag your feet to stop

Me do that? No way. I prefer to learn how to use them properly, and well. But then I like thinking for myself, instead of trying to get an engineer's program running in a computer to do my thinking for me... Obviously a foreign concept to you...

When you have done all that you will not have to worry about it ever braking down.

There's a vast difference between technology that is an improvement and technology simply for technology's sake. You can build a mousetrap with a nuclear warhead, but is it really an improvement? It may be great at killing mice, but it does have its drawbacks...

Then when you are happy you might stop trying to drown everybody else in your reams of bumff.

And perhaps when you grow up you will answer the question put to you...

Not much chance of either happening, obviously.

Cheers!

Dallara

[rdsmith3]

Previously, Dallara said, in response to my recalling a demo I had seen:

Quote from me:
All I know is that I saw a demonstration at the BMW open house in Woodcliff Lake, NJ three years ago. A professional rider showed how much better he could stop under wet road conditions with ABS than without. They also tried it with hay on the road and stuff like that. Again, even a pro stopped better with ABS. Was it a scientific, double-blind test? No, but a blind test would be hard to do on a motorcycle!


Answer me this rdsmith3 (Bob)... Was that "professional rider" there at a BMW sponsored open house there to promote BMW's ABS/EVO braking system?

Dallara,

Yes, it reasonable to assume that the professional rider was receiving some form of consideration from BMW. My recollection is that he was a law enforcement officer. I anticipated that someone would make this point. That is why I acknowledged that it is impossible to do a double blind test to compare the two systems. I just cannot conceive of a way to do a valid test.

However, although it is impossible to design a truly scientific test, I think it is irresponsible for you to state:

Can the system actually stop you quicker? NO. It has yet to have been proven it can stop you any quicker than a skilled rider who knows how to use the brakes.

That may be, but the opposite has yet to be proven, also. Moreover, an important factor to consider is that most of us are not professional riders. I consider myself to be a novice, and for me, I am glad I have ABS. It is a preference.

I believe that you have made the right choice for your situation, and I have made the right choice for my situation. Neither of us can tell the other that we are wrong.

[dallara]

To rdsmith3 (Bob)...

You said:

I believe that you have made the right choice for your situation, and I have made the right choice for my situation. Neither of us can tell the other that we are wrong.

And I agree with you wholeheartedly, 100%.

As I said to Sarah in a previous post:

In my initial post in this thread I simply wanted to give some of the information involving the drawbacks to BMW's ABS Servo/Pump-Assisted brake system, as no one had done that previously in the thread.

And:

If you honestly feel you would benefit from an ABS system, and want a BMW, then by all means purchase one with the system.

And:

The choice is up to you. I just simply wanted you to have the facts on *BOTH* sides of the argument/debate.

And even in my first post in this thread:

Of course, it's your money, and you take your choice.

To me it's not a matter of "right" and "wrong", but of whether the complexity, cost, feel, etc. of the servo-assisted system is worth it in order to get ABS...

And that is a choice only each individual rider can make.

As I said, I agree with you, Bob.

Cheers!

Dallara

[guest again]

Dallara, you seem to draw a lot of negative feedback. Duh? Oh, and by the way, please don't trot out your resume again (read your response to another guest about abs the last time around regarding your "job"....puhleeze) even if you're challenged. After reading your long line of posts this time around I have just 1 truly pertinent question for you. Where in the world did you find a helmet big enough for that head of yours?

[dallara]

To Guest Again...

Who said:

After reading your long line of posts this time around I have just 1 truly pertinent question for you. Where in the world did you find a helmet big enough for that head of yours?

Wear an XL in some (Caberg, Arai, one Shoei) and a Large in others (rest of the Shoei's)... Probably about the same size as your's, eh?

And I didn't trot out my resume in the previous ABS thread... Only stated that I had a great job, owned the business, and had planety of people working for me...

The background to how I get there is a bit more, shall we say, involved, than that...

Sure I have strong opinions, and the confidence to express 'em, but at least I try to provide some pertinent information... Which is someplace you appear to be rather lacking.

Given that I can understand your reasons for remaining in anonimity as an unpaid "guest". Why don't you pony up the membership fee and prove me incorrect or inaccurate in my conclusions rather than taunting like a schoolboy with juvenile attempts at insults?

<crickets chirping, chirping, chirping...>

Cheers!

Dallara

[Arjen]

Plain and simple ABS is a live saver under common roadconditions (dry or wet and not too dirty). Because it prevents you from blocking the wheels in a panic situation. Nothing more, nothing less. In a few years from now ABS will be standard on new bikes due to government regulations.

Power assisted brakes on the other hand are something completely different.
Most important pro: you will brake much faster because the power assist increases the braking pressure in the very first second. Many accidents, where the only way to survive is braking, end bad because it is very frightening to hit the brakes very hard immediate. Power assist helps. The first feet of braking are the most important.
Most important con: it is complex. Complex things have a habit of braking (whats in a name) and therefore can scare the sh*t out of someone when he or she relies on it.

ABS saved my *ss once on a wet road in a panic situation (R1100RT). I like ABS on a bike.

Power assist works fine for me, but I'm kinda hooligan on my Rockster. I don't really like it when riding two up. Not gentle enough.

My $.02

Dallara: if you want to respond to this post, please use only ONE sentence. I don't have much time to read...