another victim-clutch splines; beyond disappointed

[Sander Abernathy]

Did you remove the K-LT's and R-RT's from the data too?

I don't see how a milage analysis of used bikes on ebay has much to say about mechanical integrity of product anyway... kind of a non sequitur. Unless, it is to point out that there may be a reason so many BMW riders are selling their bikes once they hit a milage point.

You say that BMW replaced known crappy parts on your car out of warranty. Why not for their bikes?

Do a search on ADVrider for the spline failures on the GS's...
Do a search on BMWST for the spline failures on the RT's...

It's a pretty well documented and much to common failure for a drive-line component. Then incredible part is the number of people who had this happen with less than 20K miles.

No I didn't remove R-RT's and K-LT's from the survey data.

I agree the data is poor. It was readily available and no one is offering an alternative. Talk about a non-sequitor though! You are suggesting that BMW owners are dumping their aging bikes because they aren't reliable but owners of Hondas, Kawasakis, Moto Guzzis, Ducatis, and Yamahas with 62,000 miles on the clock refuse to sell them becuase they are so much more reliable. If you believe that why do you have a BMW? You paid more for a motorcycle that is less reliable and now that you have realized your mistake you are hanging onto the motorcycle and complaining it may break instead of selling it and getting what you believe is a superior bike that is actually cheaper. Your argument would be more convincing if you acted on your convictions.

Why would BMW fix the car but not the bike? You can't sell a car with a reputation for serious parts failure at 60,000 miles. You can sell a lot of motorcycles even with a reputation for serious failures at 60,000 miles because no one expects a motorcycle to last that long. That is why BMW fixes the car but not the bike.

According to KBB the current expected accumulated average mileage of a 2003 non-touring bike with more than 750cc's is 24,200 miles. Why build a heavy, low-performance bike that will last 100,000 miles when the average purchaser rides less than 4,000 miles a year? Most manufacturers realized that was a stupid idea years ago. One maker went its own way and builds bikes today that are heavier, engineered differently than all the rest and last longer than the competition. Care to guess which one?

[Sander Abernathy]

Here's a list by brand of the number of motorcycles for sale with >62,000 miles as a percentage of all motorcycles listed for sale

Ducati 0/159 = 0%
Moto Guzzi 0/28 = 0%
Yamaha 4/877 = .46%
Kawasaki 4/762 = .52%
Honda (excluding Gold Wings) 9/1361 = .66%
Suzuki 9/778 = 1.16%
BMW 14/222 = 6.31%

Why would you intentionally exclude Gold Wing from your Honda data?

Here's why. A quick search showed 32 out of 206 had over 62K. That would be 15.5%. And there were quite a few more of them over 59K and just under 62K.

That would have put a serious dent in the strength of your assertion.

Actually, the assertion is undented but me thinks you have the wrong denominator. The 15% figure is all goldwings, only goldwings and it excludes all of the other Hondas. The correct comparison is below:

All BMW's last night - 6.32%
All Honda's tonight (excluding 999999's and 99999's) - 42/1386 = 3.03%
All Goldwings tonight 32/207 = 15.5%
All Hondas tonight excluding Goldwings = 10/1179 = 0.8%

Include the Goldwings or exclude them, my point is still valid. A substantially higher percentage of BMW's on eBay have more than 62,000 miles than any other make. But Goldwings are obviously a square peg in the round hold of this analysis. Although they have the same manufacturer, Goldwings surpass the 62,000 mile mark at 15 times the rate of other Hondas.

[iowabeakster]

Thanks for taking the bait so quickly...

You are suggesting that BMW owners are dumping their aging bikes because they aren't reliable but owners of Hondas, Kawasakis, Moto Guzzis, Ducatis, and Yamahas with 62,000 miles on the clock refuse to sell them becuase they are so much more reliable.

I can determine the reason that BMW owners are selling with >62K exactly as well as you can determine why non-BMW owners are selling with <62K miles. I can't at all... This part of the discussion is a total absurdity.

The fact that a bike (whatever the make) is for sale on ebay in completely irrelevant to whether or not it may suffer from poor design and/or production... which is what we were discussing.

If you are loyal to BMW... Fine... If you like their products.... Great... For the most part, I am happy with my bike too. Although, I have not suffered a failure of this kind.

CNorris would have suffered this failure earlier (fewer miles) if he was a heavier than he is. It would have happened earlier if he rode 2-up more than he did. It would have happened earlier if he was a less mature rider. He should be beyond disappointed.

The clutch hub and input shaft are not wear parts. They shouldn't strip out at 20K, 40K, 60K, or even 100K miles. THEY ARE NOT WEAR PARTS!!! The friction material of the clutch is a wear part... the hub and input shaft are not! Every failure of this sort is a premature failure. The frequency of this failure is much (MUCH) to high to label as isolated incidences. The input shaft should last as long as everything else in the tranny (which is an otherwise good unit). Every single time this has happend, there is evidence of poor alignment. The failures are the result of BMW dropping the ball... no matter what the milage when it happens.

If a person has the finances to rebuild, or buy another... good for them. If a person gets X number of miles before a failure and they are content with that... whatever. Those things are different matters than whether BMW dropped the ball on the design and execution of the clutch/tranny interface.

[rdsmith3]

No one said it was an item on the maintenance schedule. Someone asked for information on how to address a known weakness with a mechanical device and I referred them to an article that answered their question. BTW, the article indicates that the spline failures have been an issue since the airhead days and continue albeit at a lower rate than before because the shafts are now nickel plated and beefed up. The recommendation is to inspect and lube the splines at 40,000 miles

You're missing the point. I am not criticizing you for providing the information on lubrication. I am criticizing BMW for their handling of this fiasco. It's not on the maintenance schedule because they do not think it needs lubrication. They seem to think that everything is just fine; that there is no problem.

[edit]

The topic of the thread is a transmission failure at 62,000 miles and you cited the example of your SUV which had a transmission failure at 62,000 miles. I think you miss the point. Comparing auto miles to bike miles is like comparing human years to dog years. Autos are much heavier and parts can be overengineered and no one even notices the extra weight. If the transmission in your SUV weighs an extra 50 pounds to make sure it will stand up to the demands no one cares. The transmission in the R1150R weighs only 39 pounds in total. [edit]

The point was not the relative mileages on a motorcycle vs. SUV, nor were we just discussing this particular failure. As noted by others, many of these failures have occurred at low mileage -- mileage that even you would have to admit is premature failure. Despite the premature failures, which are documented on ADVrider, RT forums, and other places, BMW has not addressed it. I do not recall reading of one case in which BMW acknowledged premature failure by paying for the repair, even if out of warranty.

[Beemeridian]

22

[Oilhead]

One maker went its own way and builds bikes today that are heavier, engineered differently than all the rest and last longer than the competition. Care to guess which one?

Where is the proof that Bay Em Vay bikes last longer now than an equivalent Honda or Yamaha?

It is true that at one time BMW deserved their old slogan of "Legendary Motorcyles of Germany". Back in the days when the nicest people rode only tiny Hondas, England was reigned by Prince of Darkness, and Harleys marked their spot, indeed BMW was probably heads and shoulders above the competition when it came to reliability.

However times have changed. The Big Four and even Harley produces bikes that can go well in excess of 6 figure mileage. The days of BMW being able to claim legendary reliability status over the competition has long been over.

[Oilhead]

Include the Goldwings or exclude them, my point is still valid. A substantially higher percentage of BMW's on eBay have more than 62,000 miles than any other make. But Goldwings are obviously a square peg in the round hold of this analysis. Although they have the same manufacturer, Goldwings surpass the 62,000 mile mark at 15 times the rate of other Hondas.

This is why in our court system, they make as swear "I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth". This ensures the clearest picture of the actualilty.

So the truth is, BMW has the highest percentage of bikes for sale with over 62,000 miles. However, the whole truth is BMW mostly builds touring and sport touring bikes. The whole truth is, BMW never built racer replica(not until 2010), nor build scooter, small DP bikes, or any biks below 650 cc. In another words this was a foregone conclusion.

And your reluctance to include Goldwing in your data all while not hesitating to include K1200LT, R1100RT, R1150RT, R1200RT, R100RT, etc etc etc only serves to weakens your argument because of the extreme one sided bias shown.

[CNorris]

Iowabeakster wrote:

CNorris would have suffered this failure earlier (fewer miles) if he was a heavier than he is. It would have happened earlier if he rode 2-up more than he did. It would have happened earlier if he was a less mature rider. He should be beyond disappointed.

The clutch hub and input shaft are not wear parts. They shouldn't strip out at 20K, 40K, 60K, or even 100K miles. THEY ARE NOT WEAR PARTS!!! The friction material of the clutch is a wear part... the hub and input shaft are not! Every failure of this sort is a premature failure. The frequency of this failure is much (MUCH) to high to label as isolated incidences. The input shaft should last as long as everything else in the tranny (which is an otherwise good unit). Every single time this has happend, there is evidence of poor alignment. The failures are the result of BMW dropping the ball... no matter what the milage when it happens.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I have no issues with replacing the clutch at 62K but the clutch splines are another issue. I wonder how many riders have gone 80K+ with no clutch spline and/or FD issues. 100K? I'd expect any modern bike to go 100K without major issues, with reasonable use and care.
Part of the problem here is that this motorcycle is not just a "toy" for me (though I'll admit getting enjoyment out of it) but how I get to work, run errands, and, in general, get places. It is a useful (well, was) vehicle in our house. I need it to be reliable and trustworthy. I began riding motorcycles (mostly used Hondas) 30 years ago because I was poor (grew up on a farm) and motorcycles were all I could afford to buy, insure, run, and wrench on. I always pined for European iron, from afar in the magazines. So, when the time came, I sold my excellent '86 Honda VFR750F (60K+, no problems) for a K100RS (60K+, no problems, including 2 up to Newfoundland). However, I've always loved air-cooled twins that I could do most of the work on, so when the R1150R came out, I bought one new - the only new bike I've ever bought in my life. My wife and I planned to ride it to Alaska. Life is funny though, and despite thinking we couldn't have kids, she was pregnant two months after I bought the R. So the plan switched to me keeping the bike "forever", using it as a tool to justify its existence (funny how kids make your wife practical), which was no problem, since I was the original owner, took good care of it, didn't abuse it, and, as everyone knows, BMW's last forever. Well, now we have a second kid (we're looking into what's causing THAT and once we figure it out, it'll stop ). My wife is a stay at home mom (re: tight budget) and my "forever" vehicle is dead in the shed. Luckily I have an '89 Volvo 240, which really is a forever vehicle, but my motocycle life is dead in the water. I can get a new bike, or repair this one, "as long as it doesn't cost too much" (less than $1K to play with). This doesn't give me a lot to play with. I may end up on some mid '80's UJM at the end of the day, right back to my roots.
Look, I like this bike, a lot, but feel let down by the myth of BMW's legendary reliability.
S.Abernathy wrote:

You paid more for a motorcycle that is less reliable and now that you have realized your mistake you are hanging onto the motorcycle and complaining it may break instead of selling it and getting what you believe is a superior bike that is actually cheaper. Your argument would be more convincing if you acted on your convictions.

Well, I agree with you 100% on that - put your money where your mouth is - and that's why I'm looking to get away from this particular BMW and probably the company in general. Some day I'll slot an old Airhead in the garage as a second bike but for reliable transportation, cost considered, Japanese bikes are tough to beat.
As Lance Armstrong so famously said, "It's not about the bike." And it's not. It's about the ride and the magic that happens out there. And the people. I'm off to ride a friend's DR650 while he's on a new F800. It's good to have friends who understand the addiction.

[Sander Abernathy]

For all of you that have suggested I blindly defend and might even work for BMW, I learned today that my Bimmer will be needing a special $1,500 treat in the form of replacement suspension parts. I haven't spoken to the shop yet so I don't know which parts are on the menu. (I know it's bushings but I'm not sure what else. My wife relayed that "it needs a new suspension" but she knows better than to think that costs $1,500. She paid for the "new suspension" on the 325is that I converted for track use a couple of years ago and that was many times $1,500.)

This is hardly surprising since, as I've explained, it is almost 7 years old and has 103,000 miles on it, and most BMW's need the suspension refreshed shortly after 100,000 miles because the suspension parts uniformly expire at that point. I'm not sure but I think we did the wife's car a year ago.

As I've suggested before, this is what happens when you keep a vehicle for seven years. Now that the shoe is on my foot, I stand by that statement. It's all good though. I have a car I really like, forego a car payment, and it will ride like a new car after the repairs. After 103,000 miles it is still far and away better than any new car I've ever owned. It can't compete with the bike though.

The only downside is that it will delay an aftermarket suspension for the bike though.

As for the suggestion I work at BMW, exposure to the BMW Car Club of America dashed any such illusions years ago. BMW has a rare combination of very loyal and vocally critical customers who seem to think that expensive vehicles should (a) last forever, (b) be cheap to repair when they do break, and (c) seem to think that because they own a car they should have a majority vote in how it is designed, built and serviced. I forgot that for a while but something reminded me of it recently.

If there is anything worse than complaining customers it is loyal complaining customers who also think they are designers and engineers. Why would I want to put up with that? I'd rather work for a company like Toyota, GM, Ford, Fiat, Chrysler, Honda or Nissan. At least there customers have something to complain about.

[keithbw]

Sorry, but I think replacing the suspension is entirely unrelated to the spline issue, many RR owners replace the suspension as an upgrade/personal preference issue immediately after purchase.

The point is that the splines should not be wear items period.

Like brake rotors, failure should only occur in instances of extreme abuse.

Mine are showing some wear, but hopefully the Moly60, incense, and incantations will last me a while.
Plus no more downshifting to slow down, and easy starts.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Plus no more downshifting to slow down, and easy starts.

you're joking, right?
Who owns whom ?

[iowabeakster]

Well, since this just keeps on going. I'll take another whack on the dead horse too.

I just stumbled upon this over on BMWST.com, a few minutes ago...

66,000 miles... It hadn't torn throught the clutch hub... yet... The friction material fell apart (did not wear out!) before those splines gave way. Too bad dude, you still need your tranny rebuilt or replaced.

How dare an owner criticize BMW about this?

[chibbert]

Hmmm - I am thinking that greasing a spline is a bad thing. I've heard of people doing it for years but it just doesn't sit right with me. Gears are one thing but splines are not meant to move - they are mating parts. I don't know much but I occasionally make a thousand or so involute spline shafts daily.

Flame away girls!

[iowabeakster]

Chibbert,

I'm not sure how much of the above is a joke... or what a good punchline might be...

But to the question... why lube?

For her pleasure...

The clutch disc must move back and forth along the input shaft.

2 primay reasons for this...

1. When the clutch lever is pulled in, the clutch disc needs to move (toward front of bike) such that the friction is decreased between the disc and the pressure plate. Thusly, allowing the engine and tranny to spin indepently of each other. This movement is very tiny. The movement just has to be enough to lessen the friction. No matter how small the movement is, you don't want the parts binding. Since the movement is so incredibly small, it makes the lube all the more important, for smooth operation.

2. The friction material will wear down over the years (10's of thousands of miles). Thus, the disc must be allowed to migrate to compensate for the loss of friction material. This migration is about a half centimeter.

Then there is corrosion protection.

In tens of thousands of miles (hundreds of thousands of clutch pulls), the total (back and forth) movement probably could probably measured with a ruler. (I just made that up. What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't move much at all.)

[chibbert]

Well that explains it - I didn't realize there was movement along the spline valley (honestly). I thought once mated - they remained static.

The shafts I produce have what are called clip grooves and once they (splines) are slid into a mating race, they are clipped in and there is no more movement back and forth.


Thanks for straightening this out for me.

[BigJohn]

For anyone thinking of buying an airhead to get away from the spline issue, think again! They don't recommend annual spline lubes for no reason. At least it's easier on an airhead, taking about an hour, but they will strip the same way oilhead splines do. It seems to be a common theme with the boxer engines. Do K bikes have chronic spline problems?

[Oilhead]

For anyone thinking of buying an airhead to get away from the spline issue, think again! They don't recommend annual spline lubes for no reason. At least it's easier on an airhead, taking about an hour, but they will strip the same way oilhead splines do. It seems to be a common theme with the boxer engines. Do K bikes have chronic spline problems?

Yeah the K bikes had the spline problems as well although I never had a problem on my K75(I only had it for 2 years and 24K miles however). I recall Motorcyle Consumer News doing an article on the vast number of failures on the K bikes and how a spline lube was recommended.

So is it a matter of time before we start hearing about the failures on the R1200 series?

[BigJohn]

I was wondering if possibly the boxer firing order might be some of the reason that air/oilhead splines seem to wear at high rates. Obviously not all do, but enough to cause concern. I wonder if the K bikes wear the same or less because of their more even firing pulses. Just a thought.

[Sander Abernathy]

Sorry, but I think replacing the suspension is entirely unrelated to the spline issue, many RR owners replace the suspension as an upgrade/personal preference issue immediately after purchase.

The point is that the splines should not be wear items period.

Like brake rotors, failure should only occur in instances of extreme abuse.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not upgrading anything. The control arm bushings wore out. The bushings are pressed into the control arm in such a way that they cannot be removed or replaced. Therefore, the control arms must be replaced and they are being replaced with OEM parts.

The difference isn't that one is and one is not a wear item or an upgrade. The difference is that I expect that vehicles will break down and after the warranty expires, the repairs are my responsibility. If I don't like that arrangement I could have bought an extended warranty. Accepting this arrangement apparently makes me a shill for BMW.

[Xdot]

BMW should have made the spline replaceable, larger diameter, or better yet, larger and repleacable. It could be done with an interference fit over a hardened, slotted shaft. Press on, press off, with a drift style, non-loadbearing retainer.

This is probably the best thread I've ever seen on any forum of which I've ever been a part. The R1150R memebers are to be highly commended for their painstaking research and overall professional decorum throughout. I've been on many forums that descended to name-calling by page one! And here we are on page 4 and still friends. Bravo. A truly great forum.

And...

Plus no more downshifting to slow down, and easy starts.

Now I'm a conservative rider, but these constraints pretty much nullify the enjoyment of owning a motorcycle. Or a car. Might as switch to feet.

John

P.S. Isn't there some T.A.R.P. money available for this issue???