Skill vs Technology

[mogu83]

On the R1200R forum a member brought up this issue. He thinks a skilled rider doesn't need a crutch like ABS to ride a bike safely, and that a rider would be better off developing his skill than spending the money for ABS. You can check out his exact posts in R1200R -- Quandary Regarding the Purchase of a 2010 R1200R. as I paraphrase.
I suggest he bring the issue over here, so how do you feel about ABS, does a skilled rider need it.

[mogu83]

Personally I'll take (and pay for) anything that will get me down the road safer and with less effort.
An electric start is better than a kick start, disk brakes are better than drum brakes, halogen lights are better than incandescent lights, tubeless is better than tube types, a full coverage helmet is better than an open face, electric clothing is better than a leather jacket when it's cold out, and ABS brakes are better than without ABS (on a street bike).

Yes I own and ride bikes with kick start,drum brakes, tube tires, incandescent lights and wear an open face (puddin pot) helmet and leather jacket, but I don't ride them far and I stay away from the insane traffic we have to deal with. When I go for a serious ride (speed or distance) I drag the newest (and best equipped) bike I have out.

[Ric]

Chumley makes a valid point, but it only goes so far. I've been riding now for 45 years including some serious racing both legal and out on the streets. I consider myself a highly skilled road rider and can drag knees with anyone. I attribute a lot of my skills to having grown up on machines of a different era, less high tech.

There are situations that a skilled rider can over come where a less skilled rider might not. There are situations a skilled rider won't get himself into, where less skilled riders seem to always be placing themselves into nearly untendable situations. And there are situations even the best can't get out of, minimize maybe, but not over come completely. So, any advantage, such as ABS, can have it's place.

The most obvious place I see for ABS is in the rain. Again, in general, a skilled rider won't get himself into trouble, but in the rain all bets are off. Water flows a lot of contaiments over the asphalt and the surface can become higly unpredictable. So, I can't think of a better safety component for a motorcycle in the rain than ABS, especially if you have someone special on the back.

As for dry roads and simply stopping as quick as possible, I wish riders would learn to make a quick move to go around rather than just slamming on the brakes. Of course if you own an 800+ pound machine, making quick moves isn't an option. So, in my opinion a light machine ( < 500 lbs dry) is also an important safety feature.

Just my 2 cents.

[Chumley]

This seems like a good idea, I felt sorry for that guy's thread.

So here I am and will ask you all to read the 2nd sentence in my first two posts of the original thread, I thought that made my position clear. I am actually a proponent of ABS - not the way I was painted was it? But I also think that it is okay not to have ABS. I would like it and may regret not having it some day but I am okay riding in the manner I do without it, I will not let it dictate my motorcycle selection. I will ride more carefully in rain, at night and in congested areas (especially unfamiliar with me), etc... - but the fact is I do that with ABS too. I just do it. I ride in a calculated manner and it is a sliding scale of where my comfort level is at any time. ABS might factor into it but I am not aware of it, I just ride carefully. That doesn't mean that I don't have my moments but those are increasingly rare since my days of racing on the street are over (I like to think). I do not rely on ABS to take care of decreased sight lines, shorter following distances, questionable road surfaces, weather, etc... I make adjustments for all of those conditions and if I fail then I would then have ABS

I take the stand that as the population of motorcyclists has exploded we have the good and the bad. We benefit from an accepting public (I used to be different for being one, not now), incredbile new motorcycles for every special use imagined, supposed increase in driver awareness of motorcyclists (that's not always evident), apparel and accessories, etc... But we also have the unintended consequnce of irresponsible riders riding where they shouldn't, being loud and disrespectful, posers, becoming fodder for legislation, skewing statistics, etc... I think that this plays a large role in my concern that we are raising a generation of motorcyclist who don't care about developing skill sets.

Skills are not just braking but also maneuvering and the knowledge to not get into a "situation". For a lot of us this came with saddle time and constant attention to what we are doing. There was more of a natural graduated system of motorcycle size/wieght/power. An awful lot started on dirt bikes and moved to street as we came of age. But even then, a big bike was a 650 or 750 and they were much smaller than today and a realistic 60 horsepower was a lot. Now many just go right to a big bike and make all of their mistakes in a bigger way in a many manners. But what we have now are classes that help the leap zero to 0 to 60 in 3.0 - basic, advanced, custom, advanced advanced, etc... No reason not to know more about your bike. In the next few months you will see all of the moto rags talk about dusting off the bike and your skills after winter. Get back out slowly, and frequently cited - take a refresher class. Great places to explore your limits in a safe environment (BTW: it's probably feels much better to risk someone else' bike but that misses the point).

I just went back and looked at my wife's copy of "More Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough. Read the section on "Tuning Up your Skill: Quick, Stop". If I am not reliable for information do you trust him? I must say that my beliefs are in line with his.

I saw a thread on ADVRider where rear brake pad wear was the issue. One rider spoke up and said that he was a "rear brake" braker. He predominantly used the rear brake. This is a guy who rides a 600lb machine capable of much death and destruction and he did not like using the front brake! Maybe this guy was an excellent dirt biker but he is missing out on some serious street skills. ABS was not going to help him. He apparently did not know that the front brake lever is linked to the front and rear brakes so it could have done most of the brake distribution work for him. There is a reason the brakes on the rear brake pedal are not linked to the front (trail braking, low speed maneuvers, etc... right?). There are many more examples like that. Skills. Know your bike. Skills.

When all else goes to hoonah and you have done your best there is your ABS if you have it. That is a safety margin I like. I surely don't think I can out perform ABS in crappy conditions but I really don't want to be in the situation to begin with. But it can happen.

So yes, absolutely, I would buy a bike with ABS if it was the model I wanted. And yes I will also buy a bike without ABS if it is what I wanted. I refuse to be limited by what I feel I can control to the point of acceptable risk - for me. My wife is different wife - she's got ABS now. She won't work on her advanced skills and we haven't been able to get her into another class (they're booked!). Hmmm... her Bonnie didn't and her Vespa doesn't have so I need to be careful what I say... But those are her "around town" bikes so...

YMMV.

General note on braking:
I remember learning about how to use ABS in a car. I was told to just hold your foot on the brake pedal, do not modulate it! Let the ABS work. Remember in the early days when it didn't always work and you kept rolling if you hit bumps or something, yikes (but I digress). In case you forgot or were never into it brake pedal modulation it was a skill where you braked to the point of the wheel locking, letting up marginally to get the wheel rolling again and then repeat until you are stopped - rather quickly. It is specifically taught in racing and and many just pick it up naturally with experience. This is also called threshold braking since you keep pushing the tires right to threshold of their limits of adhesion until the desired braking is accomplished. Very satisfying when you hear the rear tires of a formula car chirping in your ears. This would represent the significance of the stainless steel braided brake lines since they provide the necessary feel (not the all rubber lines which expand and distort feel) and the Brembos for the same reason. Now to go back and put the foot down or grab a handful of brakes and hold, when your intitial response is to modulate takes some conscious effort. But you do learn. Also, please remember that ABS systems are currently set to a 1g stopping load. Many cars and bikes can exceed that so in dry conditions the stopping distance is can be shorter without ABS (unfortunately I don't think you can turn off ABS in cars). Factoid: ABS equipped bikes had 20-30% fewer accidents than the same model without in a study last year. I can cite a number of reasons why that might be possible (of course) but there are already rumblings of legislating ABS on bikes.

I am still in a quandry as to why some members decided that I had only one intent in my posts. Call me a dreamer, I think good skills are within the reach of all. I think that you still need skills to properly use ABS. I think that you need to do what your head tells you is best, and accept that some others don't have that same voice in their heads.

Ride safe.

[iowabeakster]

It's been a while since we've had an ABS fight... woo hoo.

I did not read the thread which started this. But, I agree with what everyone has wrote here.

My two cents...

I've never crashed on a street bike (dirt bikes... yes I have). So my skills and judgement have prevented the actuation of my helmet (on street bikes). By helmet "actuation" I mean "bashing it on the concrete with my head in it". So do skills a negate the benefit of helmets? No. They only minimize the helmet's actuation, skills aren't a substitute.

Of course, my riding skills could still be improved greatly. I do work on them. I've been through David Hough's books a couple times each. I actively think about technique when riding.

To me, ABS is just another safety item like a helmet. I can't control the weather, oil patches, animals, or anything else. It's preferable that the safety items are not needed, but better that they are present.

I also believe that the ABS saved me a crash, one time. I don't know what would have happened, if I didn't have ABS. Maybe, I would have stayed upright with traditional brakes. Maybe not, I don't know.

I understand that money is certainly an object. So, some people might want them, but not have the choice. They certainly weren't available on older bikes, and many new ones still. I understand that the ABS system, at least in the case of my R1150R, leaves something(s) to be desired. The servo ABS brakes aren't perfect, I accept that.

But for those who have the means and have the option of ABS, and specifically refuse them? I don't get it. I never will. I have read so many threads about people claiming that ABS on bikes are pointless. Claims made that the people who have ABS are simply unskilled and too lazy to acquire the proper skills. I think anybody that claims that skills completely negate the benefit of ABS, are unreasonably overconfident and delusional. They are using the same mentality as those who refuse the benefit of helmets, precisely. Then, there are some some people accept helmets, but scoff at ABS. Where there is a contradiction, there is a breakdown in logic.

I accept that is their choice, and their right to be delusional. But, I've got the right to call a person being delusional... delusional.

Bring it, Flame on!

[wncbmw]

The obvious answer is that a skilled rider can out perform an unskilled one, ABS or not. And it sort of sad how few people work on these skills.

ABS is only a crutch if you mentally let it become one. Smart people ride smart and don't look for the ABS to bail them out. My attitude is that the throttle has bailed me out more than the brakes. (That's my story and I am sticking to it! )

I have ridden my '02 with ABS for 8 years. The ABS has activated unintentionally once. I like having it for wet conditions or hidden oil, or God help us - wet conditions combined with oil!

But it should be evident, technology will seldom outperform skill. But we should all aspire to become skilled and with the latest technology! That's the ticket!

BTW - years ago on this board, a former member (thankfully long gone) created quite an uproar by basically insulting everyone with ABS. A reasonable discussion (such as this one) can be had to support either position, especially on the basics of cost of buying ABS and maintaining it.

[mogu83]

BTW - years ago on this board, a former member (thankfully long gone) created quite an uproar by basically insulting everyone with ABS.

Maybe not. That's what caused the dust up on the R1200R list. A newer member assumed he was talking with a bunch of folks that were bypassing the developing of skills and betting their lives on modern technology. Some of the members a few approaching a half century and hundreds of thousands of miles riding on and off road thought they didn't need a basic safety lesson.

[Jed]

Maybe not. That's what caused the dust up on the R1200R list. A newer member assumed he was talking with a bunch of folks that were bypassing the developing of skills and betting their lives on modern technology. Some of the members a few approaching a half century and hundreds of thousands of miles riding on and off road thought they didn't need a basic safety lesson.

You're big on making such claims but do you have the sack to back it up? If so, use a quote to support your assertion. Otherwise your just pissing on everyone's legs.

Owning and riding a bike for a long time doesn't automatically make someone skilled or experienced. There are plenty of guys with less saddle time than I that are better riders. But at the end of the day I'm still riding while some of them are licking their wounds - in part because I know how to manage MY acceptable risks. I may not be better and I may not have "the best" equipment, but I know my limits and know how to avoid hazards. At the end of the day I'll take judgement over skills or technology. But given a choice - I'll use them all. Being pro-skills is not the same thing as being anti-technology.

cheers,

PS to quote someone you have to use the "open quote" tag to start the quote

Code: Select all

[quote]

and the "close quote" tag to close the quote

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[/quote]

(just a little bit of technology for you . . . . )

[mogu83]

I believe that we should develop our skills so that ABS takes care of the odd extreme emergency. I don't think it is something that should come to be relied upon because we do not want to learn the proper skills or just get lazy, neither of these bodes well for a long motorcycling future.

So please don't use ABS as an excuse to bypass developing the proper skill set to keep from being an undersireable statistic.

I think these were the items that set things off. This from a member that at the time had a total of ten posts.
In four years I've learned that most of the guys and Stef on the R1200R list are experienced riders with a fair amount of miles and experience under their belts and don't need an expanded sermon about safety or skill development. I don't know what the member expected to accomplish by coming on so strongly, but he did make the point that he was a skilled rider, and he might be a contender for the longest post award.

[Jed]

I believe that we should develop our skills so that ABS takes care of the odd extreme emergency. I don't think it is something that should come to be relied upon because we do not want to learn the proper skills or just get lazy, neither of these bodes well for a long motorcycling future.

So please don't use ABS as an excuse to bypass developing the proper skill set to keep from being an undersireable statistic.

I think these were the items that set things off. This from a member that at the time had a total of ten posts.

Well thanks at least for citing a reference. But tell me, since when is a member's post count the measure by which the group decides to allow not allow him/her an opinion?

In four years I've learned that most of the guys and Stef on the R1200R list are experienced riders with a fair amount of miles and experience under their belts and don't need an expanded sermon about safety or skill development.

Relative to the skill level of "most of the guys and Stef", duly noted and accepted as fact even though I have no proof one way or the other. I'll take you at your word since I have no reason to doubt you. Where you saw a "safety sermon" a saw a guy just offering detail to back-up his opinion, likely in an effort to avoid the "ABS vs non-ABS" war.

I don't know what the member expected to accomplish by coming on so strongly, but he did make the point that he was a skilled rider, and he might be a contender for the longest post award.

This is the part that I struggle with. I'd really like to understand just what you and others found so offensive. He post wasn't even anti-ABS (except on cars), he was very pro-skills but acknowledged ABS for those "extreme emergencies". Wouldn't having both the skills and ABS be the best of both worlds? You seem to have taken his post personally (as some kind of attack) and yet he didn't address you directly, did he? It is after all a discussion board, you never know who's going to read a post or when their going to read it. Unless someone calls you out by name or quotes you directly - they aren't talking directly to you.

I certainly value good ABS in both cars and bikes. In retrospect I wish that I had confidence in BMW's current generation ABS when I bought my bike. But it's too late for that now. I'll likely upgrade earlier than I originally planned in order to get that new shiny red R12R with ABS. But as of today I don't have ABS on my bike, I have no option but to use all the skills and judgement I can muster to stay safe as I ride. Here's a fact for you - the majority of motorcycles on the road today do not have BMW's ABS systems on them. So when someone attacks ABS they may be attacking one of your available options (judgement, skills & ABS) but when a group attacks skills and judgement - they're attacking my only options (judgement, dusty skills and no ABS).

cheers,

[Chumley]

So, a little response by me, the "Instigator".

I felt that my original comment might be somewhat controversial (no idea how controversial) so backed it up so there wouldn't be as much dialog. My bad, didn't work. I also forgot that I was a new member since I was so active here in the past and it initially appeared the same. Again, my bad. But the subsequent arguments really left me a bit stunned. I even tried some mild apologies but they did not appear to work. Okay back to the scheduled debate.

I decided that maybe some statistics were warranted. If you go look I think that you will see that there are many places where supposed statistics are available. I don't know the legitimacy of them all but there were some consistent trends. Motorcycle deaths are on the rise and essentially doubled between 1997 and 2004 (deaths per rider mile), I do not see where that trend changed substantially. Lack of rider skill was a prime cause, alcohol the biggest, except for the left turning car. No mention of ABS in those studies except for the ones directly addressing ABS. ABS appears it may have helped in some accidents where there is about 2 seconds for total reaction and lack of maneuvering skills were cited. Most accidents happen locally (one study said within 25 miles). Can all of these be debated - absolutely. I tried to pick up on distinct trends not a single source. Is there good information? I think so.

You may surmise that the increasingly common use of ABS would help reduce those statistics. Apparently they don't. Most of the guys whacking themselves are inexperienced and unskilled. About half had measurable alcohol levels. One sentiment is that the more experienced riders don't get into accidents as much and ride bike of higher conspicuity.

So Harry, thank you for providing this forum. I really felt bad about that guy's thread. I don't usually go after a single person but like to challenge "concepts" in a civil manner. However this normal civilized protocol appears to have been run aground some time back. I just want to say the following to you:
1. You state that you ride bikes without ABS, you gave examples, true? You ride these where you feel they are safest and ride your safety laden bike on longer rides. Statistics show that you should do the opposite. Most accidents happen close to home.
2. You ride with a "puddin head" helmet. I do too on my scooter. We are both devil may care types, no? Inconsistent with your safety arguments?
3. Can you just accept that some people are different and just let it go?
4. If I apologize for being brash will you tone it down?

There are many things being said that probably have earnest origins but seem less than logical when exposed to the light of day. Many have conclusions that are patent to them and I say "good" but can we all have that same priviledge?

So can we agree that there are many aspects to motorcycle safety? ABS seems to have started this thing but safety appears to be the real issue. Can we explore that a little bit?
Conspicuity: Bright colors (yellow routinely cited but robin's egg blue too?). Wear bright colors, I do wear a yellow helmet and am continuously being told that it can bee seen forever (usually as a rib). I have adorned my past motorcycles with swaths Solas reflective orange and it is very visible day and night, it doesn't take much. Just a small patch on the handguards seemed to be enough on my GS for people to say that I was very visible and the pattern was nice (to me anyway). I think the worst thing you can do is wear neutral colors on a gray or black bike. Not to pick on anyone (please -I have a black bike) but this is one of my primary concerns. One study said that 75% of accidents involved left turning cars in the path of a cyclist and the main reason was not being seen. Give them a flash of color or, and this should start a debate, if you see a car in the left turn lane do a little weave (safely, I feel I need to say that now) and see if that get their attention.
Keeping the bike maintained: No debate, right?
Wear a full face helmet: That is consistently stated as the best head protection. Any certified helmet is better than none but full face is best right? Factoid: Most thought that the best helmet had the "Snell" certified sticker (Snell 2005, etc...), racers use them, right? A few years ago Motoryclist blew the lid off of that belief. Apparently the real world irrelevant tests used for certification created helmets that passed way too much energy to the head in a typical street accident. Tests indicated that less costly helmets were actually better for anything other than race conditions (I believe it was the European ECE-025 standard that allowed softer helmets that reduced energy transmission that was recommended). It was no longer legitimate to say "buy a $200 helmet if you have a $200 head" - I was one of those. Now see that Snell 2010 is more in line with the ECE standards.
Regular training: Whether it be from professional organizations or your own devised plan. Keep your riding skills current and your head in the game.
Add more here:

So do you think there may be a kind of points system where you factor in all of your safety gear, conspicuity quotient, technology, skills maintenance, etc... and you come up with an overall "Safety Quotient"? Maybe we are all a lot closer than we think. But then I'm kind of a mellow dude, unless that cRAzy JOhnNIe pops up.

I don't know if I beat my old post length record. Maybe I can get credit for being "new" again here with word count.

Now remember I don't say avoid ABS, just use it as the technology that helps in that rare moment that you can't get it done.

Be safe.

[mogu83]

So Harry, thank you for providing this forum. I really felt bad about that guy's thread. I don't usually go after a single person but like to challenge "concepts" in a civil manner. However this normal civilized protocol appears to have been run aground some time back. I just want to say the following to you:
1. You state that you ride bikes without ABS, you gave examples, true? You ride these where you feel they are safest and ride your safety laden bike on longer rides. Statistics show that you should do the opposite. Most accidents happen close to home.

Statistics sometimes don't tell the whole story. Most people do the majority of their driving/riding within 25/35 miles of home so it only follows that the majority of accidents would be in that area.

2. You ride with a "puddin head" helmet. I do too on my scooter. We are both devil may care types, no? Inconsistent with your safety arguments?

I don't think I made any safety arguments, only stated that electric start is better than kick, disk brakes are better than drum, etc. I don't see the need to pontificate on safety because their are very few children on this list and most of the old guys are well aware of the safety issues.

3. Can you just accept that some people are different and just let it go?

I've been around long enough to know just how different people can be, no problem. I also learned not to assume what a persons capabilities are or to give advice unless it's asked for.

4. If I apologize for being brash will you tone it down?
.

No apology required, I tried to move it here because I thought it would be an interesting subject but not exactly limited to the R1200R. I stated why I started the thread and tried not to mention any names.

THEN - Jed decided to continue, asking me to back up my claims/assertions and accused me of

Otherwise your just pissing on everyone's legs.

So the BS continued. Jed asked for a line by line answer - I complied.

BTW on a lighter note:
A hardtail Schwinn Sting-Ray was high tech and the fact that it was where it all started (your words) shows that you didn't start riding till you were an older person.
Here's a picture of my first ride:
1944, 2 years old, solid wood trike - now that's old school --------------------------peace.

Please excuse the lack of safety equipment - A very limited vocabulary prevented me from understanding why I needed it.

[jb44]

Wonderful photo, Harry. I have a similar one of me from nearly the same year.

I'm enjoying the discussion, and you seem very reasonable, with the exception of your admitting to being from the Jersey Shore....

jb

[AirForceDirt]

I would like to throw this out because, as someone of my age (a wee little 22), I'm constantly on the wrong end of the "younger people are worse riders than older people" argument:
Just because someone is young, or new to a given forum, doesn't mean they are automatically less experienced than everyone else. I've been riding for 4 years now, have logged about 35k on my own (pretty good for only really having my own bike for 3 of those 4 years) but have run the gamut of road conditions, and oh poo situations. I know I'm not an amazing rider, but there are certain things about riding that I know very well. The problem I have is that, I know and understand most of technical and physical aspects of riding, I can look at a video of someone riding and know what they're doing wrong and what they could do to be smoother, faster, what have you. I also know that while I know this, I'm not the best at practicing it. Its harder, in my mind, to do what you know you're supposed to be doing when you can't actively watch yourself, in real-time. It is for this reason that I would love to spend as much time as I can afford at a racing school or something like that so I can have someone else that, like myself, knows what's supposed to happen so they can say "do this" or "do that."

Rambling aside, just because someone is young doesn't make them categorically worse riders, and just because someone has a huge post count on a forum doesn't mean they are the repository of all knowledge. I don't post here all that much because I spend too much time riding (to improve the all-important skills) and working (gotta fund this habit somehow), but I try to help out where I can with the knowledge that I've picked up in my travels.

[mogu83]

If what I said about old guys or experienced riders on the R1200R list gave the impression that I'm down on young riders, I ask your forgiveness. I would be surprised if their was anyone under 30 on that list, and personally I have nothing but envy for todays younger riders. What a great time to be a young guy/gal on a motorcycle, all kinds of great dependable bikes and a general public that doesn't automaticly consider you a dirt bag if you ride up on a motorcycle.
I'm sure that you've heard the cup story. You start out with a full cup of youth and an empty cup of experience. As your reflexes, eyesight, strength etc decrease usually your experience increases. The cup of youth empties the cup of experience fills and you continue on. What they don't tell you is that eventually the cup of experience starts to evaporate as your experience can no longer compensate for the loss in reflexes,eyesight and physical strength.
So when you blast pass that old duffer struggling across the Dragon or up some canyon road and he glances across at you, he's most likely thinking "I wish I was that old and know what I know today".

Good experience is sometimes the result of bad decisions.

Thanks for your service and ride safe.

[2wheels]

One factor that does not seem to have mentioned in this to ABS or not to ABS discussion is the simple fact that modern brakes are far more powerful than of old. Therefore easier to 'lock up'. The old aquired braking skills may not be relevant to this fact.

Here in England I ride mostly on rural single carriageway roads and when passing approaching vehicles often need to brake on the loose surface at the roadside. ABS is reassuring in this situation. However in 4 years of bikes with ABS I cannot recall many occasions when it has activated. But I am glad it is there and happily pay the extra.

One small nit pick: a helmet, no matter how good, does not make you or your bike any safer, it only mitigates the consequences of an accident.

Brian

[OU812]

The only issue I can see with ABS is, you will not be able to trail brake like the pros.
I will keep my ABS.

[mogu83]

ABS has some issues in the dirt. Too bad you can't turn it off on the R1200R it would be a better dirt road bike.

Recently I was in W. Virginia riding with an old time riding buddy. We rode up a hill to check out a tourist attraction (later noticed the no vehicle sign) on a trail/washed out creek type road that was loaded with round gravel. He was leading and on the way down I told him "This thing has ABS I'm going to have a rough time" throwing almost a lifetime of riding together aside and showing no confidence in my riding ability he returned "Well I'm not riding in front of YOU - go ahead and I'll watch the crash"
Great riding buddy - weird sense of humor

[OU812]

I did not think of ABS in the dirt. That would be an issue. Chitown has done some crazy off road on his R1200R. Maybe he will chime in if he is not busy.

[mogu83]

Chitown has done some crazy off road on his R1200R. Maybe he will chime in if he is not busy.

Yea but somethings wrong with that boy. I think he has a misunderstanding of personal preservation. But he does have some fun, and will have some great stories to tell when he gets old. If he lives to get old.