2002 R1150rt : Is my clutch worn?

[cryoteck]

Hi, first posting and new member.

I bought a used r1150rt-p this summer with 54000km, did the dual seat conversion and cleaned up the wiring.

So far so good! Love the Oilhead sound and feel, great handling, and looks great too.

It was so nice outside yesterday that I took it out maybe for the last time before the winter
On the way, i've noticed that I had to release the clutch lever very high for the bike to get going.
Near the top of the travel is starts to grab but i've got to slip the clutch a lot because there's almost no travel left and then it grabs.

Now as a test, I went faster up to 5 gear, and punches to throttle, and yep it slipped before accelerating.

Now to be fair, last time I took it out I did notice it when stuck in traffic.

So came back, and check for leaks, opened the clutch Master and checked the oil level, colour, smell, everything looks fine there.

Now this being a ex police bike, i'm aware that it must have been ridden pretty hard, so I guess my question is what am I looking at here?

Pretty confident DIY guy, got manuals etc... but would like to know if I do start this adventure what do you thing the problem is?

-Just a worn clutch disc?
-Hydraulic problem?
-Something else?

If it's just a worn clutch disc, what else do you recommended I change at the same time?

Thanks a lot for any help from the expert out there or anyone who has done this job before.

cryoteck

[sweatmark]

-Just a worn clutch disc?
-Hydraulic problem?
-Something else?

You could pull the starter to look for clutch contamination (transmission input seal, or crank seal, or DOT4 bleed from fried clutch slave cylinder).

Next, pull the clutch slave to check its condition.

The last resort is to inspect/replace clutch & seals, and check the clutch/input shaft splines while the bike is split in two.

Recommend you search "clutch slipping" here, on ADV, and in SportTouring.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthre ... h+slipping
http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/u ... 222&page=1

[grwrockster]

I'm not an expert, but I have changed out a clutch on an R1150R.

If it was disengagement (dragging) rather than slipping issue then I'd have guessed you'd a chance at a slave or master cylinder job and not splitting the bike to change the clutch. However, as slipping is the issue, then it might be time to get the spanners out. But not for sure....

The question is, WHY is it it slipping?

My mates' bike was slipping because the clutch slave cylinder started to leak, allowing the clutch fluid to track down the pushrod, where centrigugal force flings it onto the friction plate and renders it with err.... a lot less friction. Once contaminated, the friction plate is FUBAR.

Or... it could simply be that the clutch has done lots of work (Police Bikes do lots of town work and stop-start, as well as a lot of hard starts).

Or.... it could be that there is a hydraulic issue that is preventing the plate from engaging drive fully, or making it 'lazy' and slow to fully engage.

Or... (possibly due in part to potential hydraulic issue above, or technique), that slipping the clutch on starts is getting it hot and making it slip. (These bikes' dry clutches don't do well at all with high rev, clutch slip type drag starts and overheat and lose drive fast if you try. Drive comes back once cooled if this is the problem. Get the clutch fully home asap and then whack on the beans is the best way to stomp off in a hurry on these things).

What to do......?

I'd start with checking the slave cylinder for leaks and wear, and the master cylinder operation. If they are ok, then it's out with the bigger spanners I expect.

As it's a lot of work (compared to a jap clutch under a side case - but it's not that hard to do though) then myself I wouldn't be tempted to just change the friction plate, but would put in a new pressure plate as well to try and make it as long as poss before having to consider doing it again. (You also need to fit new retaining bolts I recall as they are one time only things).

I'd also probably change the slave cylinder as well for reliability and peace of mind, even if it looked ok.

After all that though, I'm sure there are some great sages on here who'll add some stuff I never thought of!

Good luck with sorting it!

[cryoteck]

Thanks for the info grwrockster.

You got me thinking about the slave cylinder... Could it be that it's sticking or not completely releasing the rod?

So that there's always pressure and that could cause the clutch disc to barely sit on the plate?

Have you ever heard of such a thing? Since my Master, oil level, colour smell leak etc... all look ok.

I barely have to move the clutch lever (1/2inch) to release the clutch, so it could be that the slave is stuck or not releasing completely.

Makes sense in theory, hoping that's the only problem since this is a easier fix.

Let me know what you think, and again thanks for everyones help.

cryoteck

[grwrockster]

Hmm... its hard to say, but if I was to hazard a guess and pick one cause, then I think it'd be clutch plate wear.

I'm not trying to be negative - it's your statement that the clutch has to be nearly fully released (if I interpreted your post correctly) i.e. right at the end of the lever travel before you got any clutch bite. Also the fact that once starting to engage it then grabs. Those strike me as quite indicative of a worn clutch drive plate.

I suppose it is possible that those symptoms could be produced by the right combination of hydraulic issues too. But given you state the levels, colour and so on of the fluid seem ok as well, then overall I'd suspect the mechanical clutch parts.

Sorry about that - I hope I'm wrong!

[cryoteck]

Ahahaha, yeah I know think positive and all that.

Well I guess I might look at it this way.

Get a new Slave, since I might as well change it anyways since i'm going in there.

Install the slave, bleed, and try it. If that works great, if not then I'll go in further.

since changing the slave doesn't involved removing too much of the bike, might as well give it a try.

Question : what are the parts I should get?
-Slave cylinder
-what else? Gasket, bearing, etc...?

cryoteck

[cryoteck]

Sorry forgot,

can i change the Rod without removing anything or you can only change that when it's all opened?

cryoteck

[grwrockster]

The slave comes complete - the little centre bearing for the clutch pushrod to spin in etc.

You might need a gasket, but if memory serves the slave kit may have that as well. I'm sure the supplier can tell you. In any case the gasket isn't there to be oil tight as the fluid ain't supposed to be on the outside of the slave cylinder .

Look carefully at the union on the end of the master-slave clutch line. On my mates 2001 R1150R the union was quite badly corroded where I guess road crud etc. had had time to attack it. It was too bad to risk leaving on. I don't know where you are, or how consistent BMW pricing is, but here the slave cost under £55, while the clutch line (and its rubber, not braided steel like my Rockster) was a rip-off at over £80!

I read lots of info that suggested the slave could be a pig to bleed on the extension tube, and that you need to get a bleed nipple to fit onto the extension. I didn't have one when I did my mate's bike, so I simply primed the slave first with the extension removed to flood the cylinder well, and then bled it some more by pumping the lever for presuure, then holding the lever to the bar and opening the banjo union bolt to bleed fluid through right at the slave (I reckon it'd be better to fit a bleed nipple directly onto the slave tbh - but of course it's all so much easier to get at when the airbox and rear wheel are removed as I'd changed the clutch out). I made sure the banjo was nipped back up before releasing the clutch lever to make sure no air got back into the slave. Slightly more messy, but the clutch worked perfectly right from the off, which after all is the main thing as far as I was concerned.

The clutch pushrod runs right through the gearbox spline shaft to operate the clutch - this is part of the problem as this is the path the fluid can often take when the slave leaks to get to the drive plate. You can remove the pushrod once the slave is removed, but I don't think that'll do anything for you one way or the other to do so. The pushrod is unlikely to have wear or need replacing, although Riceburner off here told me that he had a slave cyl bearing collapse so the pushrod was battering its way into the slave cyl piston, so it is possible to damage one. But with that you'd see it when you took the slave off.

The pushrod has a little recess in it part-way along with a felt pad around it. I understand this was a mod by BMW to try and prevent oil from a failed slave tracking to the clutch plate so easily - a bit Heath-Robinson as an engineering solution, but there you go (and it's not very effective either).

If the slave has gone you'll know right away, as there will be gungy nastiness in the recess space where it sits on the back of the gearbox and meets the pushrod.

It's probably worth it (if you can live without the bike for a day or 2) to get at the slave and remove it and check the condition of the unions before ordering in the bits in case you order the slave and then find you have to lay out more carriage/parcel costs for a hydraulic line.

All the best.

G.

[cryoteck]

Super, thanks again for taking the time to answer.

Btw I live in Quebec, Canada, so Winter is just around the corner here

So I have like 5 months to do all this

Like you said, I'll take the slave out first before ordering anything, that way if I need a new hose I can get it at the same time.

Still praying that the slave is the culprit.

Will let you know how it goes.

cryoteck

[MIXR]

Cryoteck,

I think you've made a good call on going for the slave first. We've done two tear-downs on my old R for clutch issues, plus a whole heap of other clutch jobs for a variety of related issues. The slave can be a real pita to get out if you deceide not to do too much dismantling, but it can be done by cracking the hydraulic line. Be careful with that as others have said.

There are a few issues with the slave. Generally, it's not rebuildable, so you replace it. However, you may find that you can get it out ok and will find one of three things.

One, it will be relatively clean and gunk-free, meaning it's probably been working ok and the problem is elsewhere, like the clutch.

Two, it may be very evident that it's been leaking. Replace it. You may also have evidence that fluid has escaped down the pushrod. That should have shown up in the reservoir levels, but a little fluid goes a long way. You can do a clutch clean in-situ by spraying a can or two of brake-clean onto the clutch via the RHS timing inspection port. Rotate the wheel (in gear) to rotate the clutch. Use a non-residue quality brake cleaner to wash the clutch plate clean. A whole heap of black clutch dust and dirt and crud will pour out of the bell-housing case at the bottom. It has drain slots for letting water etc out. At least my R did.

Three, the slave may just have a build up of muck that is preventing (or slowing) the piston from fully operating, or making it work slowly so that you get clutch slip until it allows the clutch to fully engage. You need to test this by connecting the hydraulic line so that you can operate the slave via the clutch lever. Use a rod of some description to simulate the clutch push rod and compress the slave, then pump it out with the lever. It will be very tight as the fluid orifices are small. While the slave is compressed, used some good brake-clean to wash out the slave until it operates freely. Some are so badly corroded that they cannot be salvaged this way. Mine cleaned up really well and showed no signs of leaking, so it was reinstalled and is fine. The change in operation will be noticeable if that ws the issue. Slow and sticky without full travel, to smooth and quick and full travel. You will quickly see the travel marks to note how far it should go. Or just replace it anyway to be sure.

If the clutch still slips, then it's probably fried. As noted, it is not as big a deal as it appears to do a replacement, and there are a miriad of shortcuts that you can use to save time and effort as far as what you need to do to get things out of the way. Watch your torque values on reassembly. BMW loves threading soft aluminium to take steel bolts!

The slave is the quickest and cheapest first option. The gasket can be made at home from a cereal packet or gasket paper if you can't get the right one easily or forget to order it. You don't always need TB O-rings either for the teardown if you have to go that far. Judicious use of Lubriplate 105 (a marine assembly grease) will allow stretched and swollen O-rings to be pushed back into the grooves with a blunt pick as you reinstall the tubes. Some people replace engine seals and beraings while in there, but I prefer to just do a cleanup and leave that stuff alone if there are no signs of failure.

One other thing with the clutch. The bell housing is not a perfect seal. If kero-based cleaners or degreasers have been used on the bike, the excess can drip into the bell housing where it joins the box along the top edge. The join gap is directly above the clutch! It has no seal and the metal-to-metal fit is not perfect. That leakage or pressure washing of kero-based cleaners may also contribute to clutch slip symptoms, but can be washed off.

Enjoy the Winter. Mick.

[cryoteck]

Wow great information Mick

I've got a question, if I do decide to change the clutch (because I have to or just feel like it) what parts should I change?

01 CLUTCH HOUSING 1 21217666246
02 Reinforcement ring 1 21212333397
03 Collar screw 5 11221341472
04 DIAPHRAGM SPRING 1 21212345597
05 Pressure plate 1 21212333022
06 CLUTCH PLATE 1 21217670454
07 Housing cover 1 21212333023
08 Inner hex bolt M6X20 6 21212332469

Also read somewhere that the Clutch Housing and the some other part are installed in a specific way to balance the clutch so
that it doesn't create bad vibration while running.

Now do I have to do something special if I replace one of those parts that need to be installed for balance?

I'm the sort of guy who prefers installing new parts while i'm in there, than just leave the old stuff even if it looks fine.

Thanks again,

cryoteck

[MIXR]

Ok - At the risk of bringing down the wrath of many other wrenchers out there, I'll give you some options. The assumption is that you know how it all works. The three main parts are the big bits that are either the fibre plate that wears, the grab plates that don't, and the spring plate that allows the whole thing to engage/disengage.

It has been known for some of the spring fingers to break off. It is rare on these bikes for the spring fingers to weaken, and it would likely be noticeable as a 'soft' clutch if they did. You can skip buying that part if you want, but it sounds like you won't.

Ditto the grab plates. They are just metal disks either side of the fibre plate that provides a surface for the fibre plate to lock onto and become one rotating mass. Normally, with mating rotating parts, you get a better result changing them as a set. But you don't have to if funds are tight. The steel grab plates wear very little. That's what the fibre plate is for. Unless the fibre plate has worn down so far that the rivets have gouged the grab plates.

The fibre plate is the biggy. It is designed to lock (as a friction plate does) and can't do that if wear is excessive, or it has been fluid/grease contaminated. I know guys who have done nothing other than replace a worn fibre plate and have had no problems! Others will argue differently. Depends on how deep your pockets are I suppose. Perfectionists will change the lot. Dollar-savers will change onle the absolute necessities.

There are few other consumable parts in there. Almost everything can be reused, even the TB O-rings as I said earlier. There are aligning marks to read up about, and there are dowels and pins that make reassembly easier, but they are not mandatory. You can lift and insert with two people and avoid all the alinging pin stuff. That's what we did. Even the supposed balance is not really much of an issue with parts that have such a small rotational diameter from centre.

I wil say that we replaced the whole clutch assembly on my R because I already had one on standby. What I did learn is that there is only one critical bit, and that's the fibre plate. Next time, I would only replace that part as everything else was within spec and working fine, probably because the bike was used as a long-distance tourer and not a city commuter.

These are the bits that are most prone to failure. One is obvious and measurable. The other is less precise in assessing it's serviceability if the fingers are all intact.
Obviously the steel plates need to be smooth and clean. Thay can be lightly sanded if reused.

If you delve into the other seals, then you run the risk of ending up with a leak where there wasn't one! Your call. I'd leave them alone.

Cheers, Mick.

[cryoteck]

You guys are awesome

I got pretty much all the answers I wanted and more in less than 7 hours!

I would like to thank Grwrockster for the slave insight.

And Mick for the clutch parts rundown.

When I start doing this I will take a lot of pictures, and try to make some kind of step by step for others who might need the same help.

Now I just need to find the time and courage to take this journey.

cryoteck

[grwrockster]

Wholeheartedly agree with Mick's terrific post & info .

Also second Mick on shortcuts. E.g. my (Haynes) manual tells you to drop the gearbox oil, and remove the swingarm before removing the 'box. Absolutely unnecessary! The whole gearbox can be removed with the swingarm on - why mess with s-arm bearings etc. if they are perfectly fine? Ditto the rear bevel drive box - just remove the wheel, the brake caliper, torque arm and the ABS sensor (or speedo drive). Plug the orifice unless you're gonna drain the bevel anyway to keep the goo inside!

I used a trolley jack to support the 'box with a helper and used that to ease the whole 'box, shaft etc. as one piece off the motor.

Don't worry about actually removing the subframe - it'll pivot around the front bolts on the engine and hang it from the ceiling - that way you can leave as much electrics and stuff connected as possible.

Only other thing I can think of... clutch centreing and getting the box lined up and back on. I found the easiest way, was the way I'd done cars in the past - put the clutch system together with the bolts done up just enough so it lightly grips the friction plate. Centre it by eye as best you can - use a 3/8" extension or similar as a rough centring tool. This 'loose fit' then allows you some 'wiggle', to get the 'box shaft into the friction plate centre splines, and the 'box as a whole lined up and back on. Having the 'box in gear so you can rotate the shaft by turning the bevel drive for the rear wheel helps line the teeth up and slot it home.

After this - put in the housing bolts to secure the 'box back onto the engine to keep it all together. Then, you can access the bolts to tighten up the clutch assembly via the starter motor hole (you can mark each one with a marker pen or similar as you do them to make sure you get them all torqued up properly). It's not the recommended method, but once you've got the 'box on once, you really don't want to fight with it any more - this method meant I only had to do one round of wrestling with the 'box/s-arm lump. Again - a trolley jack helps to get the box in the right position/height and take some of the weight while you get it lined up and back on.

FWIW (as Mick suggests), we only changed the friction plate, as my mate was on a tight budget, along with the slave and the corroded hydraulic line - oh, and the clutch bolts). I'd never done one before (and mate was there as a pair of hands, knowing a lot less even than me!) so we took our time, read the Haynes and then looked at everything carefully to determine what to do (and work out what steps we didn't need to do!).

Whatever bolts and fittings could be secured back in place with the item they connect to, or back into the frame lug etc. were done as we went along so that it was easier to re-assemble correctly.

Doing it this way, it took 5 hours to tear it down (one evening after work), and 6 hours to put it all back and test it (another evening, 3 days later after parts arrived). Not as quick no doubt as the pro's, but rushing would have been daft, and we were well happy with the result.

Hope this helps! Good luck, and I still hope for your sake that it's just the slave!

G.

[grwrockster]

Oh yes! I suggest that you put a strap from the main-stand and through the front wheel and make sure there's no slack in it - it'll make sure that the bike can't fall off the stand while you're wrestling with the gearbox.

My mate is lucky in that he has a table-type bike lift in his garage (he only uses it to clean his bikes on mind ), which made life easier for sure. It also meant that I was very careful to also strap down the bike to the bench top - the thought of it toppling off at height (esp. with someone under it at the time) meant that sensible precautions were in order.

G.

[MIXR]

Spot-on grw!

I didn't delve into the shortcuts like you did, but some of them become obvious as you do the job. We also used the 'align and jiggle' method of reassembly. Also, you can get to the lower housing bolts by using some very long ratchet extension pieces and going underneath from the back of the bike. Saves removing the cat etc, so even the main exhaust system stays in place. The biggest issue is the airbox. 5 bolts as I recall, and a bit fiddly to remove and replace.

Anyway - I think a sticky or shot slave is a strong probability as it ties in with the symptoms I had last time. But, there is a fine line between a worn out clutch fibre and a good one. They don't have a huge amount of material in the friction pads.

Cheers.

[cryoteck]

Well here we go!

With the money saved by doing the work myself (1500$+ in labor) went ahead and bought a Lift.

The only one near me so I could pick it up was the ProCycle. Got the DT (drop tail version).

Here's a video of the setup in my garage :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4y1rYGjKtE

So the journey begins, and no matter what happens it gave me a reason to finally buy a Lift!!

Will keep you posted with more videos and pictures.

cryoteck

[MIXR]

Good luck. It's not hard, but you need to take care. Grab a heap of cheap ice-cube containers to store the nuts and bolts you remove. And use a good marker pen to put aligning marks on clutch bits that can be installed out of balance. And flywheels etc. Saves looking for the alignment marks that may not be very visible. And use a torque wrench! Can't stress that one highly enough.

Take your time and it will be fine. If you need to, keep a notebook handy and just write down each thing you remove. That way, you can cross things off as you do the reinstall. I don't think anyone has created the ideal teardown list. Most I have seen have slight variations, depending on how creative they get when doing the job.

Be interested to see what you find. Mick.

[grwrockster]

+1 interested on the outcome of the saga!

Great bike lift/bench and nice workshop as well (I don't have either , although I'm working on it and getting there slowly )

I'm guessing that you'll be sticking the bike on the lift while on the mainstand for the surgery though? Good luck! G.

[kantuckid]

You would be well advised to read the current ongoing thread on "clutch spline lube" at BMWMOA Forum. Some have said it is one of the best to ever appear there & its targeted to your situation. Based on what the experts there say, you should be lubing the splines on your output shaft due to the age of your bike , no matter the miles which I don't recall being mentioned? You can check for spline wear via starter removal and a flat blade screwdriver. I would like to hear more if anyone else has done the lube via a syringe??? through that same space w/o breaking their bike in half, which is mentioned in the MOA thread.