Pricing, Performance, Etc....

[dallara]

Okay, okay...

I know some of you may be growing weary of my discussing Yamaha FJR-1300's and BMW RT's on a BMW R-1150-R website, but in doing some research I have been a bit stunned by some pricing info I have stumbled upon... And in a way it does have relevance to all of us who love BMW's.

I'll try to make it simple.

Following are the "Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price" (MSRP) on some motorcycle models... (all are in US Dollars, and in the US market)

2005 BMW R-1150-RT - $16,590.00

2006 BMW R-1200-RT - $18,240.00

Or a price increase of $1,650.00 - but mind you this is a "BASE" 2006 R-1200-RT, without any of the "options" BMW has as add-ons these days, like chrome exhaust, ESA suspension, oil level warning, on-board computer, etc.

So, a $1650.00 increase, or 9% hike.

Now let's look at the Yamaha FJR-1300-A (ABS equipped model)...

2005 Yamaha FJR-1300-A - $13,199.00

2006 Yamaha FJR-1300-A - $13,499.00

The FJR had a one-year price hike of only $300.00, or 2%... and it comes with the trip computer (though not as sophisticated as BMW's, granted, but only one feature - miles-to-empty - less capable), chrome exhaust, and oil level warning...

Now granted, the BMW's come with a 3 year warranty standard, whereas the Yamaha comes only with one year... But you can upgrade the Yamaha to as much as a full 5 years for additional dollars. Back to that in a moment...

So, a 2005 BMW R-1150-RT cost $3,391.00 more than a 2005 Yamaha FJR-1300-A, right?

And a 2006 BMW R-1200-RT costs $4,741.00 more than a 2006 Yamaha FJR-1300-A...

So you pay 35% more to own a comparable BMW model in 2006 best I can figure, whereas the "Roundel Tax" was only 26%...

I dunno', but it seems to me the price of a Beemer propeller on the flanks is going up at a pretty frightening rate... Sure, the R-1200-RT is an obvious improvement in many ways over the dated R-1150-RT, but exactly how dated is that R-1150-RT? Didn't it come out in 2002? Didn't the FJR-1300 come out in 2003?

But enough of that rabbit trail...

At suggested retail, you would have to tack $699 on top of the Yamaha to get the additional 4 years of warranty coverage (I don't know what adding only 2 years - to match Beemer's 3 year coverage - retails for...) to have a 5 year warranty, so that would make a 2005 FJR cost $13,898.00, and a 2006 FJR $14,198.00, but I think you will agree that is still substantially less than the comparable BMW's.

And Yamaha's warranty even includes TRIP coverage (which pays for things like transportation, lodging, and even food if you get stranded out on the road... it will even cover a rental vehicle!), so it has some advantages.

But back to brass tacks (or hard dollars, if you prefer)...

Am I the only one who thinks that BMW is beginning to get into pretty rarified air with their numbers?

Am I the only one who seriously doubts that a comparable BMW model is worth 35% more than a competing brand comparable model that has more power, more torque, etc. while matching the Beemer feature-wise everywhere else across the board?

$4,471.00 will buy an awful lot of gasoline, tires, oil, filters, accessories, etc., don't ya' think?

I dunno'... I just got to wondering...

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled programming!

Cheers!

Dallara

[12bar1]

I love my Roadster but if I were going to buy a true sport touring bike there are a lot to choose from for a lot less money than BMW. That's not to say I wouldn't buy an RT, ST, GT or what ever BMW had to offer but I would really have to take a hard look at what I was getting for my $$. The 06 FJR or 06 ZZR could win me over.

[BlueBeak]

People apparently routinely shell out $20,000(US) for Harley
Road Kings, and their stablemates. That constitutes something
approaching usery in my book, but Harley sure does sell a lot of them.

And the 3-year roadside assistance booklet that came with my 2005 RR
has Trip Interruption coverage as a feature, including transportation
home and BACK to the bike after it is fixed to pick it up.

[yjleesvrr]

I voted for roughly 30% more for a BMW. The reason is that I have many friends with thirty year old Beemers with 6 figures on the odometer that start easily and are ridden to Canada. That sort of longevity simply does not exist with other makes.

[QSIMDO]

On the whole I think BMW are priced too high.

Though I'm having a ball on an R, were it not for the '04 blow out with zero down, etc. I'd have probably been on a Japanese bike.

Z1000, another Bandit 1200, Zrex, etc.

That said, and in opposition to my normal practice of a new bike every year or 2, I'll probably keep the R for several years and find a used Bandit to play with.

That FJR seems to be a lot of bike for the money, but didn't I hear they have some problems?

[big papa]

Although I am not in the bike market now. If I was, it would be the FJR over the RT. I especially like that Yamaha seemed to listen to it's customers and fixed alot of the things that riders bitched about. I only wish they had left the brakes alone. I will never buy a ABS bike, linked maybe, ABS nope. An 06 FJR w/ 05 brakes would have been perfect for me.

[Biff's R]

Last fall, and a little earlier this year I recieved a mailer from a local dealership for 2004/2005 R1150RT s for around $13,000. I think that the low rate financing(less than 2.9%) was available, too.

Hasn't it been fairly difficult to actually get a FJR? If I had to wait 3-6 months for one to come in forget about it. If I wanna buy, I wanna ride it tomorrow, if not today.

I think that the FJR is one hell of a ride. Looks good, great performance, and a decent value.

The R1150RT is basically a R1100RT with an extra 50cc and a different headlight, so the "model" first hit the road around 1996.

[big papa]

Hasn't it been fairly difficult to actually get a FJR? If I had to wait 3-6 months for one to come in forget about it. If I wanna buy, I wanna ride it tomorrow, if not today.

From what I have read, the whole order and wait BS is over. The 06's will be in the show room. My local dealer actually over-ordered 05s, so there was usually one to sit on in the show room.

[dilligaf]

I found that if you want something different, unique and not mainstream.....
You either have to build it yourself or pay a little more for it.

[machew01]

The market will determine what premium people will pay for BMW's offerings. Whether BMW will listen remains to be seen. I'm sure their dealers will be paying close attention. I was perfectly willing to pay the price for my Roadster because I felt like I was getting good value that would last.


mac

[tor1150r]

20% for me.
What I percieve to be true:

- engine will last well into 6 digits of milage
- 3 years roadside, unlimited milage
- they can take a beating
- nicely done accessories, OEM and aftermarket
- resale value
and.....coolness/gawk factor!! (my buddy just bought an ST1300, people still stop at my bike for a look)

[Pat]

I guess when I bought my 2002 Roadster w/ABS, I was willing (at that time) to pay MORE for THAT SPECIFIC BMW. What the hell can I compare an R1150RA to in the way of other motorcycles?

Actually, I was well on my way to buying either an Electra Glide or Dyna Glide'S'......, so I actually paid LESS for my final choice. I'm sure THAT made it easier to finance $15,500.00 for the nekid Beemer.

In other words, Been there.... done that.

BMW is gonna hafta make a serious effort to pique my interest in the new 800cc belt driven parallel twin. I already ride a 2005 800cc parallel twin, and it only cost me $5,200.00.... it's producing about 15 horsepower less than the Beemer, has a messy chain drive, and is VERY old fashion compared to the Rotax/BMW configuration.

I plan to keep the BonnieBlack for years to come, but can I really bring myself to pay 200% more for a comparable BMW?

Bottom line:
What price, emotional appeal?

[FGanger]

“Bottom line: What price, emotional appeal?”

Absolutely, when the spirit moves me, hang the cost. My auto I can base on dollars and cents, my bike, not really.

Of course carrying it out to a logical extreme will stop me in my tracks. One of the super trick MV Agusta’s, for example.

Unless I can finance it, that is.


Frank

[dallara]

I hope some don't mistake the original post in this thread as thinking I don't like BMW's. I dearly love my R-1150-R, and have no intention of parting with it. I actually think that when they listed for $9,999.00 (without ABS) they were one of the best bargains in motorcycling for what you got... A true jack-of-all-trades sled with huge aftermarket support to hang just about any accessory on it you could think of.

I still think mine was a bargain (2002 for $7,000.00 used with 1,300 miles back in February 2004).

My entie point is the disturbing trend (IMHO) that BMW is beginning to do something similar to what Harley did years ago... Starting to charge a premium just to own something with the Roundel on it...

Just take a look at teh projected pricing on BMW's new "entry level" 800cc parallel twins... Not much "original" on them... Somewhat derivative in design and styling, and certainly nothing special in performance. For my money either a Suzuki SV-650 or especially the new Kawasaki Ninja 650R parallel twin would be better picks.

The Kawasaki is going to list for $6,299.00. It makes about 70 HP (10 or so down on the 150cc bigger BMW/Rotax twin), but weighs less... Has fuel injection, and to me better styling.

The new 800cc BMW really has nothing special to separate itself from the pack unless you think belt-drive and heated grips are worth a few grand. It has conventional suspension front & rear, a 180-degree counterbalanced parallel twin (which BMW doesn't even produce, but instead contracts out to Rotax/Bombardier...), and the frame certainly doesn't break any new ground...

Yet this 800cc non-Beemer BMW is going to tip the price scales at right near the $10,000.00 mark...

Is it really worth $3,700.00 (or 37% more) than the Kawasaki parallel twin, which will no doubt have good aftermarket support (if the Suzuki SV-650 is any indication) and probably be a lighter, more fun to ride bike?

On another note... I'm afraid I'm not buying into the old "BMW's are more reliable and will go thousands of miles farther than Jap bikes...", etc. I sold plenty of Honda single-cam 750's that tripped well over 200,000 miles, and even more Gold Wings of all years that did that or better. We used to service a guys Honda 305 Dream that had almost 400,000 miles on it. I have a friend with a 1979 Kawasaki KZ-1000 Mk. II that has over 210,000 miles on it... Sure, he has put some tires and chains on it along the way... Two or three sets of clutch plates (a 30 minute replacement task on those), brake pads, etc. - but the engine has never been cracked open save for valve adjustments.

Anyone who thinks that Jap bikes are not capable of mega-mileages is just daft. The real problem that causes the myth of Japanese "disposeability" is the owners... Far more uninvolved owners buy Jap bikes because they are easily accessible and relatively inexpensive, then they don't take care of them, and so some explode... I can't tell you the number of customers that brought their Honda's into my shop complaining of engine noises, poor performance, etc. only for us to find the eingines didn't have any friggin' *OIL* in 'em!

Something tells me a BMW would not run its best without any oil in it...

Conversely, BMW owners tend to be older, and certainly more fastidious owners who take good care of their bikes, and this, more than anything else fosters this mega-myth that Beemers are somehow machines capable of infinite mileage. We need look no further than this group to see BMW has some of its own reliability "issues"... Driveshaft spines, final drive blow-ups, ABS system failures, etc., etc., etc....

To get back on track, though... It just seems to me that BMW has been cranking their prices up at a far faster rate as of late than the competition. Jap bikes have creeped up, as have Italian mounts... but not nearly as much as BMW has... Why is it that BMW seems to need to roll in pretty hefty price increases while an Austrian company, KTM, has actually reduced the price of some of its dirt models to be more competitive with the Japanese?

Sorry... But in my eyes, just as Harley not that many years ago started charging "extra" just for the "privilege" of owning their iconic V-twins with an H-D label, BMW has started charging a pretty severe "Roundel Tax" just so one can be member of their "exclusive" club...

Not for better engineering... Not for more performance... Not for more innovation... Not for more extensive feature sets... Not for better materials... Not for engines that were smoother than the competition, or had longer maintenance intervals, or were easier to work on, etc...

Nope. Just more moolah for the "privilege" of badging yourself with a Roundel.

Just my $0.02... Nothing more...

But it is going to be very, very hard, for me personally, to seriously consider a new BMW... And I feel their new pricing policies are going to hurt them severely in the marketplace... If not today, then one day... Just as the bloom has begun to fade on H-D's overpriced roses.

Cheers!

Dallara

[rdsmith3]

I agree with Frank. For most of us, a motorcycle is NOT an essential good. It is a luxury item. It is an emotional item. If BMW can charge more, then they will. They are testing the elasticity of demand.

My $30 Timex watch keeps time just as well, or better even, than a high-end Swiss watch. The Swiss watch is a luxury item, and it would be silly to argue that one brand is a better value than another. If you have already convinced yourself, or your spouse, or your financial planner, or whoever that you "need" a new motorcycle (or Swiss watch), then a few thousand more is easy to rationalize.

However, I am shocked by the prices of the new BMW models. Unfavorable exchange rates are perhaps part of the problem for U.S. models. But the prices are creeping into the range of car prices.

[BobFV1]

I agree with Frank. For most of us, a motorcycle is NOT an essential good. It is a luxury item. It is an emotional item. If BMW can charge more, then they will. They are testing the elasticity of demand.

My $30 Timex watch keeps time just as well, or better even, than a high-end Swiss watch. The Swiss watch is a luxury item, and it would be silly to argue that one brand is a better value than another. If you have already convinced yourself, or your spouse, or your financial planner, or whoever that you "need" a new motorcycle (or Swiss watch), then a few thousand more is easy to rationalize.

However, I am shocked by the prices of the new BMW models. Unfavorable exchange rates are perhaps part of the problem for U.S. models. But the prices are creeping into the range of car prices.

Value of my Timex: 30.00
Value of my Rolex: 3000.00
Wearing my Rolex every day for the last 18 years: Priceless

[rdsmith3]

Bob

I think a Patek Philippe for $5,000 is a better watch.

[Simon D]

I have to say that I think BMW are in danger of pricing themselves out of the market. They trade very heavily on the "Hand built by Bavarian craftsmen" image, quoting "advanced technology" etc, etc.
The truth is really somewhat different.I bought my first Beemer in 1970 and have had them on and off ever since. Ever since my earliest days with the marque periodically in an owners group newsletter (or lately an internet forum like this) some poor sod will write in and say that he's facing a large repair bill for spline failure and the manefacturer just doesn't want to know.Often it's a case that the splines were not lubed properly on initial assembly, hardly a surprise as when I went to the Berlin factory in the late 80's the assembly tracks wre manned mostly by what BMW quaintly described as "guest workers". Mostly these were Turkish and the reason they were there was simple - they were cheaper, working for lower wages than a German would want.
Can anyone really believe that, for example,Honda would allow a situation like these spline failures to drag on for over 35 years???
As for value for money, in the UK the R1200ST sells for £9150. The Triumph Sprint ST for £7600. Both come with a 24 month warranty. Every single magazine article/test has pronounced the Triumph by far the better bike.
I've been to the Triumph factory and it really is impressive, kind of what you imagine the BMW one would be like, if you follow me.
Sorry if any this upsets you but as I said earlier I've been buying Beemers for 35 years now. They've had a lot of my hard earned money one way or another over that time so I feel qualified to have my say.
Don't imagine for one moment that that I'm unhappy with my Roadster though, it's a cracking little bike.
Cheers all Simon.

[dallara]

Watches... Hmmmmm...

Interesting comparison.

I own three Rolexes (two Presidentials and a Submariner), a Breitling, thre Omega's, a Baume & Mercier, along with a couple of others that one would consider "premium" brands...

I pull one of them out and wear it on certain special occassions. Formal parties, important business meetings, etc. when I have to be dressed accordingly. Otherwise I wear a Casio titanium Waveceptor Solar - solar powered, time set five times a day by the atomic clock in Colorado, light, extremely tough, and so far flawless... Cost me about $150.00, and in many ways is the best watch I have ever had.

But where teh comparison of Rolexes and BMW's/Yamaha's and Casio's breaks down, and breaks down *BADLY*, is in the area of true value.

Each one of my Rolexes... Each one of Omega's... My Breitling, etc.... are *ALL* worth considerably more today than the day I bought them. Theri increase in value has been steady, and one is worth well more than 5 or 6 times its original purchase price.

Show me where any of the more recent BMW's has done that...

If I could buy a BMW, and absolutely *KNOW* that in five years I could be *GUARANTEED* it would bring more than the original purchase price I would jump on three or four of them, *GLADLY*!!!

Unfortunately, we all that isn't the case... And isn't likely to be with any of the newer BMW's (I doubt even the HP-2 will hold its own, much less increase in value). That haven't produced anything groundbreaking like an R-90-S in a long, loooooooooooooooong time... And it is one of the few more modern BMW's that delivers true "collectors" prices these days. An R-100-RT of the same general vintage can be had all day long for about $2,000, or less...

Therein lies the rub with the "premium watch" analogy...

You could try to use guns, but even that breaks down... a Krieghoff trap gun (a fine German made shotgun, and I own one of them) will hold its original value, if it hasn't been shot too much... But anyone knows who shoots trap that if you shoot it seriously you are going to usually shoot a minimum 100 to 200 targets a day... A Perazzi trap gun holds its value well, too - much like the Krieghoff. On the other hand, a Remington 1100's value drops like a rock from new, and then settles at a pretty fixed point for the rest of its lifetime... Something even a BMW won't do.

Now, get yourself a Purdey side-by-side, or a Holland & Holland, and though they cost an arm and a leg (and a foot and a hand and a nose and an ear... ), their value climbs significantly throughout their lifetime, always gaining, much like a Rolex (only better!)... And it doesn't matter how much you shoot it.

Point of all this?

Well, we're talking about motorcycles, not watches, and not guns, nor anything else. You will never convince that you can compare a Rolex to a BMW in any truly relevant way... It's the proverbial apples and oranges comparison.

However, it is most definitely an apples-to-apples comparison to compare BMW's with Yamaha's, Kawasaki's, Ducati's, MV's, Honda's, Aprilia's, Suzuki's, Harley-Davidson's, Triiumph's, etc., etc., etc....

So, to maintain that direction, let's look at *USED* bike values... Using the online Kelley "Blue Book" (http://www.kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/ke.kb.sz?kbb&&&zip;5419;mc - and note these values will be from my zip code - 78415) let's take a look at BMW R-1150-RT's and Yamaha FJR-1300's, since that was where this all started...

2004 BMW R-1150-RT ABS - Retail $12,275.00 - Wholesale/Trade $8,720.00

2003 BMW R-1150-RT ABS - Retail $10,875.00 - Wholesale/Trade $7,585.00

2004 Yamaha FJR-1300-ABS - Retail $10,135.00 - Wholesale/Trade $7,165.00

2003 Yamaha FJR-1300 - Retail $8,825.00 - Wholesale/Trade $6,185.00

Now take close look at those numbers...

Even back then BMW's MSRP (manufacturers suggested retail price) outpaced the Yamaha's by at least $3000.00 (and sometimes more), yet the a used 2004 Yamaha stays within $2,140.00 of the Beemer on the retail side, and within $1,555.00 on the wholesale side...

When you compare 2003's, the Yamaha stays within $2,050.00 on the retail end, and within $1,400.00 of the BMW on the wholesale side.

Now you tell me - Who lost more money along the way?

I guess if you "wear" your BMW like some sort of badge of "prestige" or "image", like Harley riders "buy into" their own version of "lifestyle" or "image", then more power to you...

Somehow I think most of the members here are far more pragmatic than that... Otherwise we would all be riding MV Agusta's or the like, and have 19 motorcycles in the garage.

To me, a motorcycle is more like a tool... a tool for recreation and personal enjoyment. Personally I take pride in all the motorcycles I have owned (well, maybe not one or two along the way... ), regardless of brand. I don't wear them like a "badge" to signify I have "arrived"...

A watch does that much, muuuuuuuuuuch better... A Rolex if you want to play the role of "Mr. Successful"... A Casio if you really don't care what the other guy thinks (and you know you have the Rolex at home, tucked away in the safe)...

BTW, do any of you know that Rolex hasn't made their own movements in a long, long time, relatively?

Rolex Daytona or Zenith El Primero? Give me the Zenith every time... (Rolex gets their Daytona movements from Zenith, BTW...)

Just my half a cent or so...

Cheers!

Dallara

[tor1150r]

Yup. BMW's are expensive.
If I stop to think about what I was considering before my R purchase, are they that much out of line?

The only bikes are are lower in sticker price are Japanese bikes (in Canada as far as I know).

If you are considering a premium brand I think, at least in Canada, their prices are not too out of whack.

Compare to anything other than Japanese: KTM, Ducati, other brands you rarely see up here like Guzzi, MV, etc.

Even the 2 US makers are still in the BMW ball park, HD and Victory.

Again, based on Canadian SRP's your choices, price-wise, boil down to this:

Japanese or not.