An invitation to the members of this board.

[DSKYZD]

Since there are several threads containing discussion about all of this, I would like to invite the board's members to move this discussion into the member's section.

I am asking, not demanding, but asking each of you to consider doing this.

The Member's Section has one moderator and that's Doug. He would be the only one able to edit or delete posts. He has already posted a poll there asking for feedback.

Tempers are up on both sides of this thing. I'm suggesting we step inside, sit down, have a drink, whatever, and begin some real discussion.

There's some heavy statements being made against Doug and the rest of us moderators. We get lumped into a group, though. If you've got beef with one of us, step up and speak about it. If you've got beef with Doug, step up and speak about that too. But please do it respectfully. Some of you are already doing that and I commend you for it. Others are being less helpful.

Moving this into the member's section accomplishes three things. 1) it puts this discussion where it belongs. 2) it removes the often very negative input of "guests" 3) it's the most neutral ground we've got.

Unfortunately doing this leaves out those contributors who don't have access to the member's section. You're certainly free to post here in Off-Topic but would you please do it respectfully? We're all guilty of posting a quick retort and I'd like to ask both sides to get past that and enter into some REAL discussion.

This has been asked, even demanded in the past, and at first we collectively decided to remain publicly silent as there were some people who were obviously just begging for attention. Ignoring those folks is about all you can do. The rest of you I'm inviting to come into the member's section and talk about SPECIFIC things in a gentlemanly manner. I'd like to move forward from this.

This board isn't going to become a boring encyclopia. Lance, every time you post that you ensure the exact opposite result. It's not going to become bogged down with rules. The rules were demanded by the members, now they're enforced we become the "secret police" and an "iron fist". Bring that discussion into the member's section and let's sort this out. Don't run away when one side gets fed up and flys off the handle, stand your ground, point out the error and let it get sorted.

Like any family argument where emotions run strong hateful things are going get said, a good family can get beyond that and work on fixing the real problem. We're a good family, we can do that.

I feel ridiculous typing this "feel good" sh*t but it's how I feel right now. I'd really like to see more of the constructive discussion that's going on, but I'd like to see in the member's section. Maybe then things will get back to normal.

All you guys that have left, hopefully you're still lurking and will read this and consider my invitiation.

I'd like to lock this topic so that it doesn't become just a thread about the same stuff but I'm not. I'm going to leave it open and mabye give it a bump every now and then to keep it near the top. Please consider my invitation.

Respectfully,

DSKYZD

[Biff's R]

Sounds like a good idea, DSKYZD.

Everyone needs to relax a bit and get into the spirit of the Holiday season.

[RiceBurner on Mobile]

VERY bad idea.

Most of the problems Doug is now experiencing with this board is BECAUSE he has tried the cloak and dagger approach. keep these issues open, do NOT sweep them under the carpet, because if you do that you will NEVER clear the air.

Instead, lets hear some clear, unpatronising, rational answers to questions. Not subterfuge, mis-information, and hiding from the problems.




(oh and yes this IS RiceBurner, not someone pretending to be him. I'm using my XDA Cos I'm broken down and awaiting recove ry. >:( )

[Biff's R]

Riceburner, I hope that all is well, and your breakdown is something minor. (i.e. running out of fuel, or minor tire problem)

Good luck.

And in my mind it is pretty cool to be able to post from your mobile.

[riceburner]

Riceburner, I hope that all is well, and your breakdown is something minor. (i.e. running out of fuel, or minor tire problem)

Good luck.

And in my mind it is pretty cool to be able to post from your mobile.

Cheers Biff - unfortunately it looks like a nasty clutch failure. Sudden failure of all drive and nasty noises, even when stationary. :(

But it's at the dealers now and I've got an ST to play with. (which I already dislike. )

Yeah the mobile helps to stave off boredom in situations like that.

[DSKYZD]

I'm not proposing to sweep this under the carpet. Give us some clear and specific questions, but the let the board's membership and the board's administration enter into that discussion in the member's section.

We can stay here and sling generalizations back and forth until the end of time. That isn't productive and will never lead to a solution.

DSKYZD

[Guest]

Moving this into the member's section accomplishes three things. 1) it puts this discussion where it belongs. 2) it removes the often very negative input of "guests" 3) it's the most neutral ground we've got.

Interesting.
1) No, it deserves the light of day.
2) Yes, it does, doesn't it? But why do you want to eliminate negative input? And certainly, the input of the registered has been far more negative than the unregistered. Also, see (1), above, about the light of day.
3) No, it's not "neutral," though a definition of the term is probably in order. Again, see (1) above.

Why is it in organizations where there are unequal means of control, those in control always want to work out differences in private?

But go ahead and move the thread to the member's section. The world won't care, and neither do most of us anymore. In fact, now that you've prevented additional Roadster/Rockster information from being posted, you've effectively moved the entire purpose of the forum to the member's section. You might was well carry out the final step and move the entire forum behind closed doors, lock stock and barrel.

[Gord]

DSKYZD - yours has been a voice of calm and reason. While others would much rather berate and belittle members who happen to have differing perspectives, you are at least attempting to reach out and foster a dialogue. That's appreciated.

I had time to reflect on my flight into Minneapolis yesterday about my role in all this. I have tried to be calm and rational most of the time. I will admit to the occasional barb out of frustration with how unreceptive a number of people have been to any form of criticism or comment that runs contrary to the "take it or leave it" mentality that seems to dominate the board. There are two mods in particular who I consider to be highly obnoxious and narrow minded who are totally closed to any suggestion that there are things that could be done better here. So move the conversation to wherever you want. It won't make any difference. I have stated my position - what this boards needs is more transparency, not more policing. What this board needs is mods who are accountable for what they do to people's posts. What this board needs to realize is that it is its members who make it the board vibrant. I am done arguing my point. I laid out very clearly what I perceive the problems to be, and I also offered some solutions. Instead I get attacked and demeaned. Enough. No one needs or deserves that kind of treatment.

I will no longer question the direction that this board is going in. But I'm not going to leave. I will still look in, and post the occasional question about how often I should change the air in my tires. But I'm not going to waste my keystrokes fighting what is obviously a losing battle. Perhaps the next well-intentioned member who gets attacked for wanting to try and make things better will have a bigger stomach for a fight.

Thanks anyway, DSKYZD. I'll just sit in the back here and quietly follow along.

[Shaman]

...

I vote that ANY guest post not specifically about the r1150r as a motorcycle get deleted immediately.

[riceburner]

I'm not proposing to sweep this under the carpet. Give us some clear and specific questions, but the let the board's membership and the board's administration enter into that discussion in the member's section.

We can stay here and sling generalizations back and forth until the end of time. That isn't productive and will never lead to a solution.

DSKYZD

But why there??

If I (as a non-paying, but nonetheless very involved member) have a question, why am I not allowed to see it answered??

If you want to stop "generalisation slinging" then answer some questions in public and STOP the generalisations!

[DSKYZD]

Guest,

The member's section is not private. Moving this whole thing privately would involve offline emails. The member's section where the paying members of the board should be posting their specific questions.

Re-read my post again. I'm not moving any threads, I just asked for the discussion to voluntarily be continued there.

I don't see where I've prevented any Roadster/Rockster information from being posted, that's exactly what I'm trying to promote.

Gord,

Your lead is the one I'd like to see others follow. Your issue with the two moderators is exactly the type of thing that should get discussed in the member's section. Again, I'm not going to lock any threads here or move threads to the member's section. This boards members is exactly the group I'm trying to appeal to. Thanks for taking the time to speak rationally inspite of the attacks. There's way too much attacking going on lately, that's for sure.

Riceburner,

I never stated that you are not allowed to see your question answered. Ask me a specific question.


DSKYZD

[Guest]

I vote that ANY guest post not specifically about the r1150r as a motorcycle get deleted immediately.

This hardly deserves comment, since guests are already precluded from posting on the R1150R motorcycle discussion forum. Or didn't you know that?

[Shaman]

I vote that ANY guest post not specifically about the r1150r as a motorcycle get deleted immediately.

This hardly deserves comment, since guests are already precluded from posting on the R1150R motorcycle discussion forum. Or didn't you know that?

Dear Guest, you just posted. Therefore your own statement is known to be false. Sheesh.

[Guest]

Shaman: Pay attention, now. On the main R1150R MOTORCYCLE forum page, not the Off-Topic page, the Admin wisely set the main R1150R page to the following:
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Got it now?

[Shaman]

Dear Guest,

Did I mention a specific forum? No, I did not.

As for your symantics, I'll modify my original statement to make it more clear.

"I vote that ANY guest post in any of the forums on the whole board known as "BMW R1150R/T K1200R R1100R/T Message Board" not specifically about the r1150r as a motorcycle get deleted immediately."

Anything I can do to help.

[Boxer]

Shaman, we don't have to do that.

I believe there is a way for the Admin to set the board where only registered members can post. Notice I DIDN'T say "paying" members.

[Shaman]

There is.
I told him how.

[riceburner]

Riceburner,

I never stated that you are not allowed to see your question answered. Ask me a specific question.


DSKYZD

The question I want answered was to Doug himself, and I've repeated it a few times : "Does he think he should stand down as Forum Admin, now that he has admitted repeatedly that he gets no pleasure whatsoever from the board any more?".

[DSKYZD]

I certainly can't answer that for Doug, and I've seen you post that question before. When Doug says he doesn't get any pleasure from the board I take that to mean he's not happy with all this negativity, nobody enjoys something that becomes a source of frustration.

I also see a difference in not taking pleasure in the board and NOT CAREING what happens to the board. The fact that he's still here indicates to me he DOES CARE what happens. With that said, I would be surprised if he just up and handed control of the board to just anybody that walked up and asked for it.

Be sure you understand that Doug, Mark, Pat, Bill, Herb, and I are really making an effort here.

I can't assure you how long it will last before we are worn down and pretty much forced to adopt some sort of zero tolerance policy. You don't want that, I don't want that, it's not what this place is about. You have asked a valid question. If Doug doesn't respond soon, (heck he may have already, it takes me so long to pour over the wording of my statements) I'll email him a link to this thread, just to ensure that he sees your question. I can't promise he'll answer it.

DSKYZD


DSKYZD

[JCsman]

I've been "off the board" for a few days. Few, if any, may have noticed, since I hold no illusions I'm in the same class as (for example) DJ for entertainment or Dallara/Darthrider for information.

It's been difficult for me to stay off this board. It has become (perhaps too much) of a stress relief and much anticipated "time with friends". And I certainly never thought I'd feel that way about an internet discussion board.

It has been painful to view the dozens of posts about the members/moderators/complaints. It has been like watching family members squabble knowing it is spiraling downward in an unhealthy way, but knowing you are helpless to stop it. I've refrained from stepping into this fray except to react to "guest" posts. I was, perhaps, rude in a couple of those, but I was put off by anonymous "attacks".

A few observations FWIW from someone who hasn't felt personally attacked, but is personally affected. Sorry, it is long and rambling. I have terribly mixed emotions here. I see why both the moderators and members feel put upon. I see friends I've never met feel like they have been driven away. If I sound like I'm straddling both sides of the fence, I guesss I am. I sure want the board to remain the valued part of my life it has become. I'll sure miss some of the guys that have felt the need to leave.

- Once rules have been relaxed over a long period of time it is double tough to reestablish them. That's when members have gotten the idea their "rights" have been abused. Saying that we should have been aware of the rules before this doesn't always help. Our habits become the "right" way to do things. And, since the board, as it was operating in a "freer" manner was so satisfying, change to a more rigid system is frightening. The time, knowledge and EMOTION some have poured into the board has resulted in a heightened sense of ownership. I feel it, I feel it strongly. And it has little to do with my $60 Lifetime Membership.

- The sense of belonging to the board as a community is heady stuff. When moderators post things that make members feel expendable it is even more painful. Rather like being banished from a family. It hurts and people react strongly. It also explains, to me, why the perceived banishment of DJ caused such a ruckus. (I'm glad it isn't so and certainly hope he returns.) DJ is a much beloved member. Like all family squabbles of this magnitude, people feel compelled to choose sides.

- There was, originally, a limited amount of explaination for posts deleted or moved. I don't know the amount of effort the board takes (bet it's considerable), so, perhaps a clear message for each action may not be practical. (But, for example, when a post is moved, could there be a post added showing what was moved and where?) Apparently more effort at enforcing the rules took place "behind closed doors" than we knew. Sometimes that's efficient. But when we have a wide-spread barn burner of a brawl a public airing was needed.

- It is easy to overlook, but the moderators and Doug are volunteers. I volunteer as VP of my neighborhood association where we always try to do what's "best" for the neighborhood. When neighbors complain, and they certainly do, our gut reaction is, why don't you fix it yourself, you ungrateful X#^&@!/. A human thing to do. But we always try to step back to see if there is a good point in the complaint rather than take it too personally.

- There were some complaints/posts that went WAY beyond constructive criticism. There were, to some extent, shots fired both directions. But there was at least one recurring battle where a poster was pretty vicious and personal. When a group, like the moderators, see one of their own attacked like that, it's pretty hard not to take action.

- When the rules were detailed I found I could link for pictures and use the Playhouse for all non-motorcycle issues without too much trouble. So I really don't think the rules per se are the problem.

- Moderators have watched as the rules were stretched, stretched and stretched again. The posts have, apparently, reached the point where the moderators felt either disipline or chaos was inevitable. They kept trying to say the rules are easy to follow. As noted above, I agree. But that really isn't the problem either. The rule violations seem to fall into wrong location or inappropriate material.

- Post locations didn't follow the rules. There was clearly misunderstanding due to the "motorcycle related" instruction in the main thread.

But there's another reason that occurred to me as more germain. Egos here are strong (duh!). A lot of the complaints about moved threads wound up as, but my stuff isn't "center stage"! I guess I understand that. But, IMHO, had more things like Dallara posts on Honda racing, or Darth's posts on eye candy been in off topics, that would have been more of the "center stage".

- The feminine form. I like it. I like it a lot! But I also understand that having them pop up unannounced can cause awkward moments, and not just at work. I admit I don't know much about the bandwidth issue. But I don't recall pictures being a huge issue until the NSFW came to a head.

Clicking on each link is not as much fun as scrolling through DJ's day at the beach. But I have a cable connection and can live with the clicking.

But, in those painful days before the recent spat of "I'm leaving" declarations I note that several people managed to change their linking habits. (A couple used those same opportunities to make a jab at the moderators, but raw nerves and all that).

- Nerves are raw. Both "sides" of the debate have seemingly reached the point where they are reading posts, not for information or common ground, but (almost) seeking another slight.

I deal with highway projects where we literally take away peoples homes. I know full well what it is like when every word is scrutinized for a "lie" or an indication that MY point was correct. It puts you on edge and is not a healthy climate for real dialog. I'd use Gord's posts as examples. I've read his posts again to confirm my impressions. Each of his posts struck me as an attempt to find common ground. To point out where either side could improve outlook. Yet, to some extent he was blasted. On the other "side" DSKYZT has acted in the same mode, as mediator, yet he received flack too.

- The moderators have been under pretty strong assault. That ties to why their nerves are raw. And I think it explains a couple of times moderators struck out at members in a way I found distressing. But, I also see where those same guys have cooled off, stepped back and apologized where they realised they had struck out in frustration and hit an unintended target. I appreciate that.

===============================
To anyone left reading after that long-winded fluff, here's the advice I'm giving myself.
- I intend to continue to read the board.
- I will very likely continue to post to the board. But, for a while I will limit myself to bike related or humerous or otherwise "positive" things. Those that read PP will imagine my non-reaction to political issues may be short lived!
- I will consciously try to avoid flaming anyone here until I see tempers have cooled. If I post anything that sets you off, please believe I don't mean it as an attack. If you can't reach that conclusion feel free to PM me
- If I see something as a slight, I will strive to ignore it until that same time.
If I'm unable to ignore it, I'll deal with it in a PM.

========================
After the cooling off period, my natural personality will reemerge.