Exhaust Systems for R1150R

[DJ Downunder]

Very nice...I would love to put that on my bike...

I wonder if the lack of the big cross-over pipe will result in much loss in torque?

DJ

[darthrider]

Dallara -
Something you might want to try...have the *inside* of the stainless steel headers aluminum-ceramic coated.

On a 450 4-stroke MX bike it's worth 1 hp to coat the inside and another 1 hp to coat the outside for reasons you know well.
I have no idea about power gains on big-bores but it would have to be there.

But what it can do for us with lovely stainless systems is make the stainless steel take on that straw-colored "glow" a lot slower and it makes it very even with no "hot spots" or splotches.

They will come back from the coating process already straw colored as they have to bake/cure the coating. But it's quick & easy to buff them down again to the white, chrome-like stainless.

I did this on the aftermarket "fat" headers I put on my MZ Black Kitty, then did a "bumper-chrome" polish on the old Baldor buffer. They are gorgeous now with a very even and very glossy straw finish (darker near the exhaust ports of course).

When my Speed Triple comes in, before they start it I am having them remove the stainless system for this treatment. It's slow and expensive but will be well worth it on a long-term keeper.

*Any* fresh exhaust system should be wiped down thoroughly with a non-oily, water-white solvent like acetone or lacquer thinner to remove fingerprints, oil, sweat-salt, etc. before starting the motor. Even on a system without internal coating, this will help avoid most of the ugly splotchy areas. Chrome or stainless steel.

Let us know how the new system works...and I'm sure you will!

[dallara]

Hey, DJ...

Thanks for the kind words!

You asked:

I wonder if the lack of the big cross-over pipe will result in much loss in torque?

Good question! According to the dyno sheet shown on Laser's website, *NO*, but I am not one to necessarily believe manufacturer's dyno sheets...

Given the length of the header pipes (and the small Laser balance tube) I would like to think it would not result in any low- to mid-range torque loss, but... I am worried about the friggin' diameter of the header pipes causing one. It's hard to see in, or tell by, the pics, but the header pipes are not much bigger right as they exit the engine, but a bit downstream, right at the first pipe juncture on both sides down from the exhaust ports, the header pipes flare and expand to a significantly larger diameter. I have seen this done before, but usually only on big singles... Of course, the Beemer Oilhead pretty much acts like two big singles, and each cylinder's exhaust pulse should be at or near the end of the pipe before the next one starts heading down the way.

We'll just have to see... But I'll let you know.

I still have the final finish polish to put on the pipes, but I want ot wait on that until just before I mount 'em up.

Cheers!

Dallara

[dallara]

Neat idea, Darth...

On the coating, and I fully understand where you are coming from. However, I really don't want to wrap any more $$$ in various exhaust systems at the moment... (otherwise how will afford your Norton! )

I just always liked the look of these Laser HotCam systems, and when one came along this cheap I just couldn't pass it up! I actually doubt it will ever spend much time on the bike, as it makes you dump the centerstand (my stand of choice, always...) and the way it mounts precludes using system cases. Since I use my system cases a *LOT*, I imagine I will only have the Laser on whenever I want to spruce up the stock header pipes, Staintune collector, and Neptune muffler, or when we do the "day missions" to the Hill Country or around the lake to strafe some apexes...

You said:

*Any* fresh exhaust system should be wiped down thoroughly with a non-oily, water-white solvent like acetone or lacquer thinner to remove fingerprints, oil, sweat-salt, etc. before starting the motor. Even on a system without internal coating, this will help avoid most of the ugly splotchy areas. Chrome or stainless steel.

Thanks for the tip, but been there, done that, and got the stained t-shirts to prove it!

Actually, it is not only good to wipe the stainless down with acetone, etc., but then to let the pipe sit about 12 to 24 hours before ever firing it up. Supposedly this allows the surface of the stainless to "close", or "heal", or "set" (or something like that, I can't remember...) prior to heating. It's one reason I want to re-do my stock header pipes. Whomever originally set the bike up and fired it up initially evidently had all sorts of crapola on the pipes, and they have stains and splotches all over 'em (remember, I got my Beak used...).

Still, the Laser should be fun, and should sound even more like a P-51 Mustang than the Staintune/Neptune combination!

Cheers!

Dallara

[darthrider]

Dallara -

I knew I was "preaching to the choir" on some of that pipe-prep sermon but it's always good to lay that stuff out for all to see.

When we did a hop-up on my old '84 R100RS (with another 50 HP that would have been the best sports tourer of all time!) I put a full "chrome plated" stainless system on it. My engine guy started the bike before I could get there and left both pipes covered with greasy, sweaty finger and hand prints...with predictable results.

For a year or so I could even see the swirls in his fingerprints before they finally blurred in! I tried all kinds of pipe cleaners & polishes and NOTHING even touched that crap. I stopped for fear of polishing through the chrome into the nickel layer.

That bike now resides with one of my best friends and it took 15 years for the discolorations to finally blend in together. They look great now with a nice blue to dark straw to light straw to chrome finish with that great "patina" that only old shiney surfaces get after years of use...and care.

Well, a P-51 sound would certainly be preferable to the "string of wet farts" sound as someone recently described the sound of an oilhead with a pipe! Sadly I have to agree that is a perfect description of the sound of a flat twin. I have heard them "loud" but I ain't heard one "pretty" yet!

That will be cool if you have the first one!

Something I *really* like about that Laser system is they use equal-length headers going into a real "merge collector" rather than just welding two pies together like most of the others. I didn't realize they were using "step-header" technology either! Virtually all the real performance HD systems now use this (for what THAT'S worth!) and it is being used in the primo Big Gun systems for dirt bikes and performance quads. (Big Gun is one of our vendors and that's where I "went to school" on the aluminum/ceramic coating benefits, especially coupled with step-headers).

As you know, many big performance gains come in tiny little incremental steps.

[Deans BMW]

Boy oh Boy Big Dal, if you could only add servo/ABS brakes, you would really have something.........................

[DJ Downunder]

Hey Big Dal....you might like to make up a replacement center/track stand like this.

DJ



http://www.vanharten.nl/site/gallery/va ... 4db7c4.jpg

http://www.vanharten.nl/site/gallery/va ... ea18eb.jpg

http://www.vanharten.nl/site/gallery/va ... P00546.JPG

[darthrider]

DJ -
What does that centerstand/lift contact on the bike?
Is Vanharten a BMW dealer or? They have some mighty tasty 50Rs!

Dallara -
Can you dump oil & change the filter with that bad boy installed?

[Pat]

In all that I've read, I concluded that components from the same
manufacturer, designed to work with one another,
works best. If you have no concern about VOIDING YOUR FACTORY WARRANTY,
then I think Laser is the way to go. They've put time & effort into the
headers, into the collector, into the can,
and into the chip that makes it all work.

My method was hit & miss. I only wish now that I had a Dyno run of the
bike in it's stock configuration. I tried a variety of cans, and a variety of
combinations. I kept the CCP in, I took it out, I put it back in again. I
used the stock air filter, and replaced it with a K&N. I ran a straight
CAT', CAT' with a gutted can (ran unbelievably well!), Remus "Race" Y-pipe,
custom made mufflers, and a SuperTrapp in a variety of configurations.

Talk all you want about "horsepower"....... it means little if the torque
curve sucks. I managed to produce almost 82 horsepower
(can't find the Dyno print-out anywhere in the house),
but the torque paled in comparison to my other runs that resulted in
fewer horses to the rear wheel.
Case in point, look at my two runs below and compare the torque curve.
I chose to run with a set-up that created more back-pressure, because it
made the bike more "ridable" with it's fatter & flatter torque curve.

You gotta ask yourself what you want outa yer bike, empty bragging
rights of high horsepower figures, or a pleasant machine easy to ride and
responsive to the twist of yer wrist..... ?

[dallara]

First, for you Darth...

On the subject of fingerprints, etc.... When I got my R-1150-R, used with 1,302 miles on it from a guy in Norman, Oklahoma, one of the few flaws I could find with it was the awful, splotchy discolorations of the header pipes. All I could figure was whomever did the dealer prep and predelivery on the bike had only made a half-hearted attempt to wipe what coating or preservative that was on the pipes out of the crate, and in doing so only made the problem worse... I vowed that someday I would correct this, and that day is coming (thanks to the Laser rig), but as you said, over time and miles the swirls, swipes, and splotches have started to kind of meld together. They wouldn't bother me so bad if I had not experienced the dreaded fuel clamp leakage issue and that spilled a ton of gasoline all over my Staintune cat-eliminator collector "box" leaving it with weird spots, splotches, etc. of its own, and they look terrible (and the damn leak also discolored the paint on the gearbox, damn it... Oh, well... My bike was never intended to be a "trailer queen" or showbike!).

Back in the old MX days, our shop started experimenting with removing the then ubiquitous flat black off of MX pipes, and then polishing them out to a high shine. Since these pipes were no more than mild steel (not stainless), you had to keep them coated with something. We fooled with various clear finishes, etc., but what I liked best was swabbing them down with oil and allowing them to discolor in rainbow hues. We stumbled across an interesting blend that gave some spectacular color results - about equal parts of 90W gear oil, 20/50W dino oil, and a local specialty cutting oil called MX237 (made from, of all things, rice hulls). This gave really beautiful "discoloring" results, with shades of blue, purple, bronze, and gold. You had to be fastidious in applying the oil after every ride or washing, but if you did the color just got better and better over time.

I like the sound of my Staintune/Neptune combination quite a bit. It's a bit "blatty" at lower revs, but as it builds through the midrange the only sound I can equate it to is a cross between a full-tilt off-road VW race buggy and a mega-motored WWII fighter plane. I love it. Makes me think I am "strafing" apexes from the controls (net nanny wouldn't let me use the proper word for the interior of an airplane - i.e. the "cookpit" but with a "c") of a ME-109 or FW-190!

I hope the Laser will be even better!

Interestingly enough, I measured the header lengths to the collector, and they are as close to equal-length as any production pipe I have ever seen (within between 1/16th and 1/8th of inch of each best as I can determine measuring along four different sides using the "thread" method...), so that should be an advantage... Total length of the pipe is considerably longer than the stock arrangement, and of my Staintune/Neptune combo as best as I can determine (and that is trying to measure the Staintune/Neptune rig on the bike, which is problematic... I will get more precise measurements when I have it off the bike later), and that points to broad spread of power more than peak HP production. The system is "stepped" in two stages, and it will be interesting to see what Laser was after there.

The Laser may be a bust, but if you don't try different things, how will you ever really know for yourself?


For Dean-O, who said:

Boy oh Boy Big Dal, if you could only add servo/ABS brakes, you would really have something.........................

Sorry, Dean... But I specifically searched, and waited, to find the *NON* ABS-equipped Laser HotCam exhaust! I understand that the ABS-equipped Laser has really sudden power delivery, very poor throttle response, weighs 12 pounds more than the stock system, adds four more O2 sensors and three warning lights, will not allow the engine to fire up unless you have the brakes actuated, and costs $3967.00... and has a habit of suddenly making the engine lose 90% of its power at inopportune times, and when that happens the entire exhaust system has to be removed and shipped to Holland for diagnosis and repair...

I'll pass...


For DJ Downunder...

Wow, *THANKS* DJ for the line on the stand !!! I am looking into fabbing one to duplicate that rig. Should be easy, and I even think I can improve on the idea by using some earred "buttons" bolted where the stock centerstand went that stay on the bike, much like the stand ears you can bolt to sportbike swingarms. Then I can just roll the stand underneath the bike and lever it up! Cool !!!


For Darth again, who asked...

Can you dump oil & change the filter with that bad boy installed?

Man, Darth, I doubt it. From what I can see it will be dead in the way of the drain plug and the filter, and even it wasn't you would be draining oil all over the pipes. However, it's really not an issue, as the system is so easy to remove once set-up... Just remove the four springs on the header pipes just downstream of the exhaust ports, and then pull the muffler can mounting bolt, and viola', the whole system drops away. Probably take all of about three minutes... Which will also be a good time to clean any road mung off the pipes once they cool. I don't think it will be a problem.


For Pat...

First off, my factory warranty has been toast since June 2005, which is why I was waiting to ever "crack" the Motronic to drop in another EPROM chip. Now that the warranty is long gone, I don't care, and the Motronic will get "cracked" at the first available opportunity for the installation of the MotoOne UltiMap UM872 chip I got from Down Under (Thanks, Brad Black, wherever you are these days!).

Your conclusion (i.e. sourcing from a vendor that developed an entire system in-house - pipe, can, chip, etc. together...) is a sound and logical one, but...

There is no way of knowing exactly what year R-1150-R Laser used to develop their pipe and chip on, what grade and "mix" of pump gasoline they were using in Holand at the time, or what they were aiming for when they developed it... (i.e. pure peak power or a broad spread, etc.), so it is still a crapshoot.

Rhinewest is right up the road from me, and they supposedly sell a great chip for R-1150-R's, but they were far less than forthcoming about how they developed their chip, or on what year of bike, or with what exhaust system, etc. Their approach is that their chip works with the stock exhaust to improve power and driveability if you leave the CCP installed, and if you put an aftermarket exhaust on you remove the CCP to "adjust" their chip to work with the accessory exhaust... and they claim their chip works perfect with any and all exhausts. Sorry, but that just didn't satisfy my experience and thought process, so I passed on a Rhinewest chip.

MotoOne, and Brad Black and his cohorts at UltiMap, were *VERY* open and forthcoming about how they developed the mapping of their chip... Explaining to me what exhaust systems were used, what conditions they were developed under, what kind and grade of fuel was tried, and what they were trying to achieve with their chip - the broadest spread of useable power with the highest peak torque and HP overall, across the board. They were not just going for peak power, but the fattest average increase throughout the rev band, and smoothest delivery and flattest torque curve while still gaining power throughout. This si the kind of approach I like, and they were more than willing to supply me with any and all data I requested - with no secrets. They even expressed their concerns with the fuel being different in the states than in Aussieland, but I saw no insurmountable problems there.

These are the reasons I went with the UltiMap chip. We'll see how it works.

On the subject of dynos... I have run, and developed, several engines over the years using dynos, and have been disappointed each and every time. Simply put, the dyno can get you "in the ballpark" but depending on it for your final configuration is an exercise in futility.

Why?

Because what works on the dyno, and how an engine is "loaded" on different dynos, and even how the software that interprets the dyno data to give you your numbers, is so far different from the real world as to almost be apples and oranges... Sure, a dyno may be a more than necessary tool for drag racing (i.e. strictly developing for peak power), but in the "real-world" of street riding, or road racing, or dirt bike racing - where you have ever changing loads, throttle positions, temperature and ambient condition changes, etc. the only really valid dyno is the trusted, experienced personal one of the "seat-of-the-pants" dyno. Each and every person has a different idea of how an engine should "feel" throughout the rev range - where they want the most "pull" and where they want power to taper off, etc. - and that person's "feel" will even vary bike to bike. I learned this the hard way, and have gotten to where I only turst what I feel, and on the track what makes the stopwatch read less.

Too many times I have been on the bike with the so-called "killer engine" only to find that its power characteristics were so odd or unusable that I started maiing changes in the friggin' pits. As I went along, over the years, I simply started working from a good baseline and developed engines from there - on the road or on the track - by "feel" until I go them where I wanted them. Surprisingly, this approach often turned out to actually being not only cheaper than dyno development, but faster as well. And you know what, when these "field developed" engines were finally run on certain known dynos the results literally always proved that the engines were making great power everywhere in the rev range.

That's what I strive for.

Remember, horsepower is strictly a mathematical construct to represent torque in relation to RPM. In a sense, horsepower doesn't even exist, except on paper. Torque is what can be measured, both by a dyno and your seat-of-the-pants... Nothing else having to do with power production.

Personally, I don't care what the dyno says. I only care about what my arse tells me, or what the stopwatch says, depending on the circumstance. Even when we were Indy Car racing I got to where I demanded that all our engines be built the same, and to race configuration. Only on a couple of occasions did we use "special qualifying engines", and all but one of those times using such engines turned out to be an absolute disaster.

Why, again, you may ask?

Because how and engine develops its power, and when and where it delivers it, effects more than straightaway speed... It effects the chassis dynamics, throttle positioning in the corners, aerodynamic set-up, etc. The driver doesn't need to be getting in an all new car every time he crawls in... Give him consistent, repeatable, solid power and he can give you reliable chassis set-up feedback.

In most situations, peak power is an illusion... Just ask Yamaha. First thing Rossi did when he got there was have Yamaha redesign their entire M-1 MotoGP engine for a broader power spread and more responsive throttle (and hence tire) feedback, and Yamaha went from a mid-packer to a World Championship.

Just my $0.02... Of course, YMMV.

Cheers!

Dallara

[frankb001]

A lot of people like to delude themselves about the HP gaines from their expensive aftermarket pipes. Louder doesn't mean more power - it often means less.

A German MC magazine (Motorad) last year tested 8 different aftermarket exhaust systems for the R1150R.

None made more power than the stock system.
Most made less.

[DJ Downunder]

A German MC magazine (Motorad) last year tested 8 different aftermarket exhaust systems for the R1150R.

That's odd......I wonder if they left the cat on...and just put diferent cans on it???

DJ

[ed@r1150r]

Is Vanharten a BMW dealer ?

yup...... And they've got beautifull specialls

If you wanna see some nice Rockster-conversions, check THIS out.
Yep, the site is in Dutch, but the pics aren't.

[beekstersocal]

i would like to reply ,but i cant keep up with you guys typing kinda reminds me when UGHORDO would post the pics look good i still like my remus a little better

[socalrob]

Dallera

That exhaust system looks beatiful. Actually, so does the whole Rockster. Would you be willing to sell the stock header pipe, left hand side (as seen from sitting on the bike), the pipe that has a male insert on the cross-over pipe? Mine got a good dent from road debris, enough it may be best to change it in case I ever trade her in. I havn't priced it out at the dealer but I'm assuming it ain't cheap.

[dallara]

Two things...

First, for frankb001, who wrote:

A lot of people like to delude themselves about the HP gaines from their expensive aftermarket pipes. Louder doesn't mean more power - it often means less.

Hmmmmmm... Interesting. Guess we better get in touch with all those BMW Power Cup guys and tell 'em to pull those race exhausts and fit the stock R1200R systems ASAP to gain some poke, eh?

Sorry, but unless you (and Motorad) have found a way to repeal the laws of physics, gas flow, resonance, etc. then you couldn't be more wrong. There is even a link in this thread proving such a conclusion is wrong, wrong, wrong... Not to mention the experiences of guys like Dean-O, Boxermania, and myself, along with many, many others.

If you have a BMW R-1150-R "Stocker" with the stock exhaust system, and you are ever in Texas, look me up and we'll have some impromptu drag races, roll-on's, and top speed tune-up's... and I'll let you ride mine, and then I would love to hear your personal opinion as to if there is any difference...


For SocalRob, who asked:

That exhaust system looks beatiful. Actually, so does the whole Rockster. Would you be willing to sell the stock header pipe, left hand side (as seen from sitting on the bike), the pipe that has a male insert on the cross-over pipe?

First off, Rob, the Rockster isn't mine. Those are pics of the pipe on the guy's bike I bought the Laser rig from (who lives in New Mexico). The other pics are the system in my garage after I cleaned and polished it up.

I own a gorgeous, beautiful, stunning 2002 Atlanta Blue R-1150-R, which you can see at my smugmug gallery (http://r1150r.smugmug.com/gallery/580458). Since I simply had to have the very fastest color I chose the Atlanta Blue!

But I am sorry to say, Rob, that I don't want to part with any of my stock exhaust system. I need the stock header pipes (both sides) for when I will be running my Staintune cat-elminator/Neptune muffler configuration. From what I am told the "new" Laser system I just got will not allow you to use system cases, as it comes up to high and at a different angle than the stock pipe or the Neptune. Sinc emost of my long distance riding requires my system cases, I will probably be using the Staintune/Neptune combo more than the full Laser HotCam exhaust system.

Wish I could help, but I need to hang onto those header pipes!

Sorry.

Cheers!

Dallara

[frankb001]

Dallara:

Comparing race tuned exhausts for racing engines, to exhausts meant for street use indicates a lack of understanding for the fundimentals involved.

As a professional engineer, I'll take carefully collected real DATA over someones fanciful ideas any day. If you have ever read Motorrad, you would know that they are very technically orientated. For instance, on their long term test R1150R, they completly disassembled the bike at 50,000 km (including the engine) and measured all the wear surfaces to determine if any were out of spec. They provided a complete report of results, with photos. This type of DATA is meaningful - opinions are not.

If someone has the Technical background and Educational credentials to dispute carefully taken exhaust test results, that's fine. Otherwise - Talk is Cheap.

[dallara]

Well, Frankb001...

First, you are assuming I am *NOT* an engineer, which would be a mistake (by training, anyway...).

Second, whether it be with race engines, street engines, race exhausts, street exhausts, dirt bike exhausts, race car exhausts, street car exhausts, four-stroke exhausts, or two stroke ehausts... ad infinitum... Doesn't make one nano-whit... the fundamentals are all exactly the same, period. Gas flow is gas flow. Piston reciprocating engines are air pumps (and wonderful resonant devices, too..). Doesn't matter whether it is one in a car, a boat, a train, a plane, or mounted on a stationary water pump.

Suggested anything else indicates a *REAL* lack of understanding of the "fundimentals" (sic) involved, from intake mouth to the tip of the exhaust, period.

If you want to compare resumes and experience with either engines or data acquistition I will be happy to accommodate you. I will mention mine includes over 20+ years as a mechanic and engine builder, and over 10 years at one of the very highest echelons of auto racing in the world.

If you want to present your case of exactly how you conclude that a production motorcycle engine breathes any differently than a production-class, spec-series, production-based "race" engine (i.e those R1200R's used in the BMW Power Cup series), please fire away, and I will be more than happy to debate the finer points of exhaust tuning and gas flow...

Hell, if you want to have some real fun, we can even get into turbocharged race engines, too... like 2.65 liter Ilmor's and Cosworth's that produced over 800 HP... Or 3.5 or 4.0 liter normally aspirated engines that prouced over 700 HP. I have a ton of experience with both, and with both PI and EFI (a data acquisition system company by that name) data acquisition systems...

Your position suggests you might be one of those who might claim the stock Showa shocks on BMW R-1150-R's are superior to, say, Ohlins or Wilbers...

Cheers!

Dallara

[socalrob]

Dallera - completely understandable. Maybe I'll lurk about Ebay myself.

That exaust with all the springs really is pretty cherry. I just can't get the K1200R out of my head lately, so I may not want to be modifying the RR.

[jc wms]

Great info in this thread! I have a Rockster Ed 80 with a low Staintune can and want to spring for the cat eliminator. Being vain I was also interested in polishing the headers when I make the addition. To keep a more silver state, I'd thought of Jet-Hot coating the headers. I like the idea of improving the state of the engine by removing the heat, but to be honest: I am neither mechanic nor engineer and have little knowledge beyond basic engine . . . uh . . . stuff.

Would a coated header/uncoated cat elim. combo cause the cat eliminator to turn color more quickly from the transferred/concentrated heat?

I had thought of coating the interior and exterior of the pipes and the exterior of the muffler, but that would leave the inside of the muffler unprotected. Would I still get discoloration, or is that oxidative product?

I guess I'm fishing for opinions to achieve the best compromise in looks and function. I 'd prefer the exhaust system to be (essentially) uniform in color.

The color and finish of the Staintune products are beautiful, and if keepable, great -- I would rather ride it than polish metal (the white wheels are enough, thanks!).

Since I am currently overseas and distant from my bike, it is an opportune time to gather parts and have time-consuming procedures done now. (I have people O.K., person who will do a little wrenching and mailing for trinkets . . . and beer money )

Thanks in advance for the responses!