Did I fail my friend?

[scottybooj]

My neighbor just bought a brand new, beautiful Road Glide. He finished his MSF course and asked if i'd ride a little with him since he still only has a permit.

I brought him to a parking lot, did figure eights, stops/goes, starts, etc...for a while then took him onto a residential side street with stop signs. Saw that he was doing fine, I brought him to a two lane road that moves faster, (45mph limit), although definitely not a highway.

We were at the stop sign to make the right and I told him to go ahead of me. He didn't, and motioned for me to go. I pull out and head up and notice in my rear mirror that it looked like he stalled. A mercedenz benz is impatient and goes around him, probably flustering him.

He then makes his right and takes it a bit wide, actually it looked as if he may have crossed the yellow. This prompted a car to swerve, he then laid his bike down, it went under the car but he was able to push off and get out of the way.

This then prompted the involved car to hit two more cars.

While he admits he took the turn wide and that he was completely at fault, I feel like maybe there was something I should have done or rather, maybe I shouldn't have taken him out?

He's fine. Sore knees, but no injuries. He thanks god he wore a DOT helmet cause his head hit pavement.

If I did something wrong, please lay it on me. He keeps telling me he's sorry, but I feel like I failed him.

Thanks for your input.

[Boxer]

No Scotty, you are not to blame for anything. YOU did everything right. On the other hand, your friend has all the blame for this one. He should have been riding a 250cc Honda Hawk...or its equivalent.

A bad thing to happen on one's first outing, but the basics of motorcycling out on the real road are not easily learned in a weekend MSF course.

Maybe suggest to him he garage the Harley for a spell and rent some small bikes to learn on.

[Capt. Blackadder]

I don't think you did anything wrong, Scotty. I'm afraid your neighbor is entirely at fault here. The H-D website lists the wet weight of a Road Glide at 762 pounds. Assuming your neighbor just took up the sport, that's a hell of a handicap for a new rider's confidence... akin to a greenhorn private pilot trying to fly a C-5 Galaxy. A classic case of Too Much Bike Too Soon, unfortunately.

[rph802]

I agree with Boxer, this is on the new guy. Thats alot of bike to be muscling around even lightly busy streets w/o much saddle time. I consider myself lucky to have been able to spend my first months on the relatively bare roads of VT. It was enough to give me time to acclimate to the bike and not have to deal with tons of traffic and other hazards.

The only thing I can nitpick that you may have done differently was to insist that he go first on that turn so you could run interference from behind, leaving him one less thing to worry about. I think you're right, he probably popped the clutch and stalled then got rushed b/c of the MB. But he's a big boy. his choice to go or not go and what to ride.

You did all you could to help your buddy out. That was a great thing to go out and help him practice in the lot. Good for you!!

Craig

[popgazer]

Scott:
You are a GOOD friend, even for looking back and to trying take some blame... But, the reality is that your friend knew from both MSF and, I am sure, from you that he needs to ride within his limits taking into account road conditions, traffic, type/weight of bike etc. He failed to do that. You can give a friend your best instructions, but in the end it's up to him to make sure he regitered all that advice and apply it. If he doesn't he would get in trouble in/{out of} your presence.
He just need to make sure he learns the most out of this experience.

[scottybooj]

thanks to all of you.

yeah, he even thinks he should've 'eased' into it by using a smaller bike. Too bad.

[wncbmw]

scotty - ease up on yourself. If he went to the MSF course plus the additional work you put him through, he did more than a lot of new riders. You went above and beyond. I certainly have never done what you did for a new rider.

Unfortunately, he made the same mistake lots of friends my age have, bought more bike than they could handle. We all know you can tell a good rider from the way he handles the slow speed stuff than the highway cruising!

[KMACR]

Scotty, you did all the right things and this was just an unfortunate event that befell your buddy. We all have to get to know our bike's---and its rider's---capabilities. A person can practice and practice but eventually they venture into the real world and real roads and we hope that the mechanical workings and control of the bike are the last things on their mind at that point. With so many, it isn't.

When I was learning, I was fortunate to have a nearby lake and its attendant lake roads complete with stop signs, asphalt, a little gravel, straights and a few twisties for a wonderful daily "private" practice course. My first times out my mind was filled with the complexities of simply operating the bike and not falling over, even having completed the MSF course. It's different when you're initially getting out there with your machine. I had to ride only two miles on a lightly-traveled city street to reach it. But even then, I encountered my first real world emergency stop on that city street when I didn't anticipate a traffic light change well enough. I skidded to a halt and after my adrenalin subsided I realized how quickly a good time could go bad. Fortunately I controlled the bike so that the only after effect was the smell of burned rubber. But the lesson was there. I'm a better rider for having the experience.

New riders need to practice on those residential and less-traveled roads as much as they can and make the dumbest mistakes out there, with fewer people around to potentially be involved. Stop too quick and have a tire lock up, or not quick enough and overshoot an intersection, have the tire get squirrely on some gravel they didn't notice, set their foot down in a depression in the road at a stop and feel the bike do a slow descent onto the ground, release the clutch too quickly at a light and feel how easily the bike can get away from them, work on making those gear changes without a 2-second interval in between...even forget to put the kickstand down before getting off. That's the place to do it. And they'll take those lessons home....and later apply them on the real streets.

You did your buddy a great favor by going through all the things with him that you described. Still he wasn't apparently ready to have full confidence in himself and his machine but that's no fault of yours. Especially if he was doing well in the parking lot excerises. At least he got out of it with just a scuffed helmet and a dinged bike. The lesson he learned from it hopefully will have him riding safer in days ahead. He's obviously way ahead with a good friend like you to help him along....now, why the heck isn't he on a Beemer?!

[dragonmojo]

Nothing much you can do... BUT, as for your friend and others like him:

Why'z everyone wanna start runnin' before they learn to crawl?! I see this time and again, and it always boils down to BIG FAT EGOS.

Maybe one thing you could have done, but this would have been before the unfortunate incident. Or perhaps you had already tried. That was to talk some sense into your friend and have him spend some quality time with a much smaller bike before his ego let him buy that big fancy American icon. For many egos, having that ICON is more important than motorcycling. If riding is what he really wanted to learn to do, he would have heeded your advice.

[paroyboy]

Nope, I'd say you went above an beyond. He on the other hand should not have been on a 1450cc monster like the Road Glide. That bike is hard to ride even for someone with experience. With the stationary fairing, its hard to judge what the front end is doing. (for me anyway) Theyre nice looking bikes but definately not for a beginner.

[yjleesvrr]

Scotty - likewise with the comments. You didn't do anything wrong. You couldn't have foreseen what happened. It sounds like everything that could have gone wrong did, save for the fact that your friend is still alive. Thank goodness for that at least. And also on the ditto front is to tell him to get a Sportster if he's that big into Harleys. Or a smaller cruiser made by the Japs or simply a standard like my SV650.

[LonestaRR]

You were much kinder and patient to him than my friends were to me on my first ride. I had my license for about 2 hours when two bikes pulled up to my house and said they'd take me on my first ride. I hadn't even ridden in the neighborhood yet. They let me do a couple of blocks in the neighborhood. Then I complained I didn't have enough gas. They escorted me to the neighborhood gas station. The next thing I know I am riding between two Harley's on a two hour ride through the Pine forest with a lot of curves, traffic, fallen pine needles, and rain.

And like your friend, I went too wide and too fast into a curve, crossed the yellow line and was about two feet short of a head on collision with a huge Oldsmobile (I got a good look at the grill). I just kept thinking "I gotta get over". The look on the car driver's face was more frightening than the experience. Both of my friends saw the close call and I think it upset them more than it did me. The guy in the lead wanted to stop because he figured I would be pretty shaken, but he decided to make me ride for at least another 15 minutes because he was afraid if I stopped I would not ride again. Actually, being able to pull out of it at the last moment gave me more confidence than it did fear. I never blamed them for my near fatal accident. Nor did I fault them for taking me out so soon. In retrospect, they probably should have started out slower with me, but I always had the option of saying "no, I'm not ready." So I never blamed them. I should have known better I suppose.

All that to say, I don't think you should feel badly about his accident. And from experience, he probably really doesn't blame you at all.

[scottybooj]

Thanks again to all. I made a mistake on his bike...it's a Road KING, not a Glide. Weight is similar, but no fairing on his bike.

It's funny, I grew up on harleys and was riding my dad's FLHTP Police Special around my neighborhood and at fairground meets when I was 14. So I guess I look at the newer Hogs with their better weight balance to be an absolute ease to maneuver. I even took my bud's new Road King around the parking lot and remarked on how easy it was to do figure 8s with this bike. One lane figure eights, not 80 foot diameter ones!

He's a new neighbor of mine and has expressed how he wanted to buy a harley about two months back. That's when he showed me the catalog for the Road King. I did mention how a Sporty is nimbler, lighter, but also quicker. I did not, however, talk him into buying a cheap learner's bike first, which I have done with SO MANY of my friends and I did not make a strong argument for something like the sporty. I guess his ability to buy a harley in addition to the 200 grand he's putting into his house amazed me.

So when he bought it a month ago, he signed up for MSF and has been taking weekly lessons. He's been going up and down our block for weeks, so I thought nothing of it to bring up to the parking lot and then off from there for a small local jaunt.

I'll tell ya though, until it's my own son who needs a shadow to learn by, I'm not doing this again for anybody!!!! That scared the living crap out of me...to watch it in my rear view mirror.

So, I think I'll get on my bike now and ride SAFE. (and fun )

[Oilhead]

Let's call a spade a spade...
You did nothing wrong my friend. Your neighbor's ego is several times larger than his brain. He had no business riding around in public in such a large, poorly handling bike with his obviously limited riding skills. Not only is he endangering himself but others on the road as well.

Everytime I see a rider wobbling, duckwalking, stalling, or dumping a bike around here, it's some middle aged novice on a Harley. And of course no helmet.

At the risk of sounding very harsh, I hope this guy gives up riding for the well being of himself and society.

[sjbmw]

Motorcycling is one of the last bastions of self expression, self reliance, and self responsibility in this ever growing society of victimization. My crash was my fault. His crash was his fault. Motorcycles are like mirrors, no one else to blame.

If he was riding on the back of your bike and got hurt scott, those types of feelings would have made sense.

First bike? a Road King? This incident was going to happen anyway. You just happened to be in the vicinity. Those bike are parade floats.

[paroyboy]

At the risk of sounding very harsh, I hope this guy gives up riding for the well being of himself and society.

Yeah, kinda harsh. We've all made mistakes. His was just a little bigger than most! Luckily, pride and money were all that was lost.

First bike? a Road King? This incident was going to happen anyway. You just happened to be in the vicinity. Those bike are parade floats.

In Harley's defense (come on, they pay my bills!) I've seen guys on Road Kings and ElectraGlides put twits on sportbikes to shame on BattleTrax. It's all in how familiar and comfortable you are with the bike.
I agree, something was bound to happen to the guy sooner or later with being a newbie on a bike that big. Sorry it was something so bad.

[dragonmojo]

In Harley's defense (come on, they pay my bills!) I've seen guys on Road Kings and ElectraGlides put twits on sportbikes to shame on BattleTrax. It's all in how familiar and comfortable you are with the bike.

Hehe, those guys on the Road Kings and Electra Glides used to be the twits on the sportbikes!

[Ed K]

Concur the consensus here Scott... you were more than helpful, and a great friend.

To be riding a Road King as a first bike... well... was not good judgement on his part.

[TonyT607]

Dude, like everyone said....not your fault. I hate to generalize but it looks like your pal fulfilled the mid life HD/Cruiser stereotype. Take MSF, get permit, buy huge bike, take turn wide, crash. (Get yelled at by pissed off spouse). A friend of mine (recently retired executive) died 2 years ago doing the same thing. "Single Vehicle Crash" the paper said.

Just be thankful he (and you) didn't get hurt. He's a big boy and should have known better.

Now is your chance to be constructive and proactive:

1) Tell him to swallow his pride (and testoserone) and garage the RoadKingDynaFatGlideClassic (assuming it isn't totalled) and go buy a Honda Shadow (or a Vespa) and practice in an empty mall parking lot.
A lot of practice.

2) Tell him to sign up for private lessons with Gaspar Trama (no relation) of Trama's Auto School in Queens. http://www.tramas.com

3) Convert him. Sell him your RR, go buy new R1200ST !

Hope all is on track with baby # 2 and you'll make it to VT.

As an inducement (or maybe not) here are Jeff (Biffs R), Me, and you last year in OH.......

[vinman]

I've had what I thought was a very close friend fail me, you certainly did not fail your friend. Quite the opposite in fact. I agree with the other posts, your friend most definetly had too big of a bike for his first. I wouldn't go as far as buying a vespa but he should definetly swallow his pride and get a used 500 cc bike, or 650 tops if he's a big guy. He can get the big HD back on the road after he develops his skill and confidence. The small first bike will be money well spent.