Riding pants - Leather or Fabric

[baffler]

I'm looking at getting some new pants and am having trouble deciding whether I should get leather or fabric (Cordura etc) based pants. There some new leathers out there with the TFL Cool System that supposedly remain relatively cool whilst riding in the sun, though they are not cheap and a not as comfortable as fabric based pants, nor are they waterproof (unless there's a Gore-Tex like membrane inside).

So, what's are the pro's and cons of each and what are you all riding and what brands?

I'm in Switzerland so the brands are European based.

If anyone could refer me to some links comparing the different materials, that would be great.

Baffler

PS My Jacket is a mixture, i.e. Ballistics Cordura with leather elbows and shoulders. Inside there is a waterproof/breathable membrane. Aside from my R1200R, it's the best piece of equipment that I own....the Schuberth C2 is coming a close second though.

PPS, I know this is not exactly R1200R related....but, ah well.

[DRothermel]

I have both. I ride in my leather pants (HD-FXRG) up until 85 or so. Very comfortable and not hot. They are unlined with armor in the knees and hips. In the rain I slip my Gortex rain pants over them. 85 degrees and above I wear Joe Rocket air mesh pants, armor included. Both work well for me.

[Klink]

What DRoth said.

I think that any "four season" motorcycle clothing is going to be unreasonably compromised, although BMW's Savanna gear is probably the best, if you don't mind looking like Charley Boorman.

I wear leather pants with Keprotec vent/stretch panels until they become unbearable, then I switch into Draggin' jeans. I would like to get some BMW jeans, but theyre about four times the price of Draggin'.

[ka5ysy]

Motoport/Cycleport Air Mesh Kevlar II pants and jacket... heavily armored and work great in hot weather. Touched 92 degrees at one point yesterday and stayed very comfortable. I use a rain suit over that if necessary... big rain drops come through the mesh and it stings a bit!

[chris]

I have both but haven't worn my leathers in a year. Have cordura pants with armour and a zip out lining for summer use. Just wear normal lightweight pants under those and can take them off if necessary when I get to wherever I'm going. Much comfier and I never have to stop to cover up in a rain shower.

[Arbee]

I haven't seen one MotoGP rider wearing draggin jeans or cordura
but i do see them wearing leather "enough said" do you want looks or
protection.

[Klink]

enough said

Sure is Arbee. Thank goodness we have your wisdom to enlighten us.

[baffler]

I tried on some Textile/Fabric based pants today full of funky materials like Cordura, Kevlar, and Gore-Tex like stuff. They are definitely easier to get into and out of than the leathers I tried on, on previous occassions. They're also lighter, more flexible, more colourfull and fitted with reflective strips (meaning visible), and presumedly cooler in summer, warmer in winter and waterproof. I just wonder how tough the material is in the case of a fall. Some of the material looked kick-arse, though some didn't look like they offered more protection than a t-shirt.

So just how tough are these new material compared to leather?

[DRothermel]

No man made material offers the abrasion protection that leather does. It boils down to the fact that the molecules in leather are arranged in a random order. Man made materials are not. Sure, the other stuff offers protection, but not at the same level as leather. dingle

[ka5ysy]

I hereby file a minor dissenting opinion:

Leather is the standard because it is a good protective fabric. Most people like leather simply because it has been around a long time and works pretty well and "conventional wisdom" hates change. However...

Many variables can effect its quality. It must be fitted very snugly because folds cause a loss of strength and tearing during a slide.

As an organic material leather dries out and looses its flexibility over time. Each time leather gets wet and dries it can loose up to 20% of its tear and abrasion strength. (You do sweat don't you??) Modern synthetics do not do this.

Tear and abrasion strength in the best corduras are similar to competition grade road racing leather. When attending any road race in the country it is always easy to find someone that repairs leather. The best leather in the world gets abrasion damage and tears in a tumble.

Only Cordura Nylon or Dynatec of 620 Denier or above is suitable for motorcycle gear. Polyurethane stuff is dangerous because it will melt into you skin on slides.


In order to give it the proper motorcycle abrasion strength Kevlar is woven together with Cordura and Lycra. Example: Schoeller Keprotec. These synthetics are the only suits approved for road racing other than leather by most race organizations, so it must be pretty good stuff!

Abrasion and tear strength comparisons:

NEW Competition Grade Leather 80-110 pounds to tear 1200-1700 cycles to failure. How old is your leather?

1000 Denier Cordura 110 pounds to tear 1780 cycles to failure.

Air Mesh Kevlar 1260 pounds to tear 970 cycles to failure.

Stretch Kevlar Blend 420lbs pounds to tear 1800 cycles to failure.


Most important to me is that I can ride in my mesh kevlar on a 95 degree day and not feel like I am being cooked! The mesh kevlar gives better protection than leather and is much, much more comfortable in normal usage in a much wider range of temperatures.

Bottom Line: some of the modern fabrics are at least equal and some of them are far superior to leather in protection.

I rest my case.

Doug

[Arbee]

Leather stops abrasion because it keeps the EU foam pads inplace on knees elbows shoulders & back the same as the cordura ones do, on the other hand draggin jeans have no padding to tolerate any impact even at walking pace, i have seen flesh exposed to a fall with draggin jeans
and it was if they were wearing normal jeans because the friction & kevlar sizzles your skin which the damage looks exactly as if you didnt have any on at all... on the other hand MotoGP riders fall off regularly at high speed and walk away, the evidence is there for all to see, and not just conjecture or supposition that a BMW logo on a cordura jacket makes it
better than leather.

[baffler]

Thanks Doug for the explanation. It was exactly what I was looking for. So I can buy my Keprotec reinforced pants knowing that if I take a spill, I'm not going to be better or worse off had I gone down the leather route. Right?

Arbee.....what on earth are you actually trying to say? I missed your point/s which seemed a little conflicting. Care to elaborate.

Baffler

[ka5ysy]

Arbee:

Jeans of any kind are simply not appropriate for use as motorcycle safety clothing despite claims of the manufacturers. Unpadded jeans, whether they contain kevlar patches or some other claim reinforcement, are still jeans, period. Several days ago I had a discussion with a student in a motorcycle safety class I was teaching, and he indicated that he went down in a well known brand-name jean with kevlar knee and seat patches. He ended up with a good case of road rash because there was no armor and the jeans did in fact tear in several places. This proves the point that kevlar patch jeans are not the same as proper riding gear and are essentially useless, which is in agreement with your point.

The melting/burning problem you refer to is present with those manufacturers who claim to have "ballistic" "hypertex " etc clothing or something of the sort. Their stuff is generally a nylon fabric that is coated with polyurethane to improve water resistance. The "kevlar" is usually some kevlar thread or fabric in a small area of the jacket or pants to make it sound good to consumers unaware of the melting situation with any urethane coated nylon fabrics under heavy friction from sliding. Moral here is caveat emptor.

I know several trauma center nurses and doctors that have horror stories several times a month from having to debride wounds that contain melted fabric from cheap riding gear.

Only Cordura Nylon or Dynatec of 620 Denier or above is suitable for motorcycle gear. Denier refers to the thickness of the fibers in the fabric weave, higher denier number means higher abrasion and tear strength for the rider's protection

Properly fitted gear of any kind (meaning a snug fit), will hold padding in place whereas loose fits will allow the movement of the armor regardless of whether you are in leather of synthetic fabric gear. Many riders are using jackets or pants that are fitted too loose and will allow the armor to move around, which defeats the whole purpose of wearing the gear.

Simply put, wear something for protection. Anything is better than nothing. If leather floats your boat, by all means go with it. There are synthetics equal to or better than leather for our use, which is my point. Most assuredly the high end custom kevlar mesh suits are cooler than anything leather available, which is why I use them in the heat and humidity of south Louisiana. Leather would quickly cause a heat stroke in traffic.

Besides, I really love to throw my kevlar stuff in the washing machine on gentle cycle to clean it, then hang it up to air dry. You absolutely cannot do that with any leather suit.

[ka5ysy]

Thanks Doug for the explanation. It was exactly what I was looking for. So I can buy my Keprotec reinforced pants knowing that if I take a spill, I'm not going to be better or worse off had I gone down the leather route. Right?

Baffler

Baffler you will love properly fitted synthetic riding gear because of the low maintenance, and it will definitely protect you in a getoff if properly fitted, meaning proper positioning of the armor. Enjoy the ride ! I envy you location. Beautiful country there !

Doug

[slipknot]

I suppose the grade of leather and which fabric in comparison will offer a lot of different results. I've seen the Joe Rocket mesh stuff after 30mph slides and it held up ok. I did a 20 mph spill in jeans and long sleeve heavy cotton shirt and had to sleep on my left side for three months. Mostly bruising, the cotton actually held together well. The padding is much more important than most people realize. There are some approved kevlar suits used in road racing and I'm currently using a kevlar mesh suit which helps with the air flow. What I don't like is the stopping to insert/remove liners for rain/sun. I think that perhaps a waterproof suit with lots of vents may work well. I used to use a First Gear Kilamanjaro and was very happy with it but I'm not sure how it will hold up compared to kevlar or leather. BMW has a suit that has kevlar and the outer shell is water proof, don't recall the name. As for leather being the best, perhaps. But we do not see leather used for helmets, shoe soles or bullet proof vests. It seems to have lost ground during and after World War One.

[rmak]

Kevlar !?,Cordura !?,Keprotec !?,Dynatec !?, Denier !?....Come on, guys, do you have a primer for someone who's worn jeans while riding for the last 40 years?
Since I don't expect to heal as fast as I did in my younger day, plus the fact that there are a lot of crazy cagers loose on the streets, I've been wearing more body protection and have been looking at pants.
This thread has me confused. I've seen some Icons that have "Aramid" protection which is completely different from anything I've read here. Are these good, bad or indifferent? They are on the less expensive side so they appeal to me. (and please no sermons asking what my legs are worth). I've also heard that you can get underwear that supplements the armor.
You guys have obviously been wearing and studying this stuff for some time. I would appreciate a clear opinion on brand and protection. To simplify, I already know what leather is! Thanks,
Rich

[baffler]

Doug, thanks so much for the info. If you happen to be in Switzerland some day, drop me an email and we can go for a tour......or four! I may even let you sit on the back of my 1200R.

Rich, dude. Toss the jeans in the bin and get the real deal. I'm riding some hand-me-down riding pants which do offer some protection though don't fit me too well and are not waterproof. Thus the current investigation. So far as I can tell, decent pants are gonna cost, regardless if it's leather or otherwise. And yes there are a plethora of technologies and brands. I figure though, if I stay with the known brands and buy the top model, it's gotta be good. At the moment, the odds have shortened quite dramatically on synthetics!

Baffler

[vielzebub]

I'd like to think I'm ATTGAT, but I frequently fail to wear pants.
Riding pants of course.

I tend to just throw on a pair of jeans when I head out the door. I do feel a little exposed though so searching around I found these:

http://www.aerostich.com/catalog/US/Aer ... 16909.html

Anyone have any more info on them, or something similar?
I know its not leather or some man made textile, but for generally slow urban commuting it'll be better than the jeans I wear now.

Sorry for the hijack, just trying to add another alternative to the textile/leather discussion.

[ka5ysy]

I'd like to think I'm ATTGAT, but I frequently fail to wear pants.
Riding pants of course.

I tend to just throw on a pair of jeans when I head out the door. I do feel a little exposed though so searching around I found these:

http://www.aerostich.com/catalog/US/Aer ... 16909.html

Anyone have any more info on them, or something similar?
I know its not leather or some man made textile, but for generally slow urban commuting it'll be better than the jeans I wear now.

Sorry for the hijack, just trying to add another alternative to the textile/leather discussion.

Here ya go: Add this Bohn Body Guard system to yours or any other jean and you will have an armored riding setup:

http://www.actionstation.com/bohnsection/


Doug

[ka5ysy]

Kevlar !?,Cordura !?,Keprotec !?,Dynatec !?, Denier !?....Come on, guys, do you have a primer for someone who's worn jeans while riding for the last 40 years?
Since I don't expect to heal as fast as I did in my younger day, plus the fact that there are a lot of crazy cagers loose on the streets, I've been wearing more body protection and have been looking at pants.
This thread has me confused. I've seen some Icons that have "Aramid" protection which is completely different from anything I've read here. Are these good, bad or indifferent? They are on the less expensive side so they appeal to me. (and please no sermons asking what my legs are worth). I've also heard that you can get underwear that supplements the armor.
You guys have obviously been wearing and studying this stuff for some time. I would appreciate a clear opinion on brand and protection. To simplify, I already know what leather is! Thanks,
Rich

Rich:

Aramid fibers are a class of heat-resistant and strong synthetic fibers. They are used in aerospace and military applications, for "bullet-proof" body armor fabric, and as an asbestos substitute. The name is a shortened form of "aromatic polyamide". They are fibers in which the chain molecules are highly oriented along the fiber axis, so the strength of the chemical bond can be exploited.

Examples, Nomex (fireproof stuff) kevlar etc. so do not get confused that it is something different. They are all members of this group of synthetic fibers.

Wearing any good quality protective gear from a major manufacturer is way better than jeans, shorts, t-shirts etc. you see a lot of people wearing.

Check out the Cycleport site for a good primer on riding gear:

http://www.motoport.com/

Click on the "Save your Hide" link at the upper right of screen and get here:

http://www.motoport.com/saveyourhide.pd ... 0-777-6499

Hope this helps !

Doug