What would you do if your clutch spine failed?

[Ves]

Just curious. Seeing as there seems to be good odds that people holding on to their rides may eventually have to deal with a clutch spine failure. If it were to happen to you, and it was not covered by warranty, what would you do?

YOU CAN CHOOSE UP TO 5 OPTIONS.

[jfslater98]

You forgot "Vow to fix it myself now, then chicken out when it happens and pay a dealer"

I have to think about this one a bit, as I want to answer honestly.

[boxermania]

I would fix it myself because I can do it, but is not an easy task, also I would not stop at just throwing some new parts and letting it go at that. I would perform a root cause failure analysis and correct the issue, then post the findings for those that will encounter the trouble.

So far, since I have researched the subject we have more than one problem....

1) There is no full contact between the shaft and the clutch disc splines, to the tune of 18% to 20% less. That means that the torque carrying capacity between the two is diminished.
2) There is a misalignment problem, my research indicates that it is angular misalignment, as such, there are at least 3 or 4 planes in the cases, crank flange, flywheel, where the misalignment can be sourced, although the cases are the main suspect.

It is unfortunate and as I alluded on an earlier post, as our mounts age and get into that 30K mile range, there will be more failures. If you are looking to buy a used bike I’d say, buy the newest model that you can afford. If on the other hand you are considering and older model (2002 to 2004) I would thoroughly research the service on the bike and if it has suffered the spline failure, IMO, buying an older bike without that info would be playing Russian roulette.

[Lobo1625]

After the sobbing and expletives I would have to fix it myself. This is actually an issue that another board member and I have been discussing rather recently due to the transmission issues he's been experiencing. I however can't see myself going back with the stock (prone to failure) shaft, but $900 is out of my price range.

I'm trying to do some research and see about acquiring a stock shaft and clutch disk, making the proper modifications (length, spline engagement and hardness) in the computer and having one of my suppliers make up a batch of them. As Quantity make price go down, I'm sure that I'd have to order quite a few to keep it reasonable. If there's enough interest in this thread of people who would fix it themselves but don't want to buy a $900 shaft, but also don't want to buy a prone to failure stock shaft.

Of course if the after market shaft were to come down to about 1/2 to 1/3 the price I would just get one of those.

[boxermania]

Lobo 1625

Personally I don't think hardness is the issue, however, I haven't taken a hardness reading on the input shaft or the clutch disc splines. The Canadian shaft at $900 is probably because they are not making quantity, and the only thing different is that it is longer (on the splines) by ~.200"

I posted on this failure, just last month. It is on the third page, about half way down on this thread. On the post there is also mention of the Canadian shaft and a pic comparing the OEM and the aftermarket.

As indicated previously, any type of straight parts replacement it's only going to postpone a recurring failure, unless the problem is identified and corrected.

It is good to have the equipment to be able to run a few….is it a CNC? Probably a 4340 steel would be equal or superior to the OEM offering.

[sweatmark]

I checked all the boxes except "keep fixing it".

Will attempt to fix myself if necessary, but not sure how much special tooling might be required, based on info from SportTouring and ADV boards. If cost of tooling is excessive, then a professional will get the job.

I'd try the Canadian input shaft after reading about its origins on ADV. If the spline problem gets more common, then expect some other parts options to emerge.

If we got stung with Degenerative Spline Disease on either or both R1150Rs, then the problem would get fixed and offending bike sold... reluctantly. Would buy a Buell XB to replace the BMW.

This is the type of situation that seriously erodes brand loyalty, if not permanently then for a long time. Example: I got stung with the VW diesel scam in the 80s; wouldn't touch the brand with a 10foot pole for over 20 years, but we now have & love a VW car that works flawlessly.

[Lobo1625]

Boxermania,
From the pictures I've seen, some of the input shafts were showing wear, indicating that it is as soft as, or softer than the clutch disk. After machining it would have to be hardened anyway, so going slightly harder than the O.E.M wouldn't be a problem at all. I can also have the hardness tested to see what I was from BMW. 4340 was my thought, and shouldn't affect the cost much at all (over 4140) The 5mm (.196") that the shaft was lengthened would be easy as well. I'm going to see about progressing with purchasing the stock input shaft and clutch and going from there. My goal would be a shaft from 300-500 but I am not promising anything.

*#If anyone has pulled out the stock shaft (worn or not) and a clutch disk, and has it still I can most certainly use that to work on. I"ll pay S&H to TX and return them when I've got measurements#*

That would also keep R&D costs down. I'm not going to do this to make money, I'd really like the community to have a solution to a daunting problem that faces us all at one point or another.. (My ownership of the early 02 model year causes me to be more than inclined to find a suitable replacement)

[Airman]

Boxermania,
From the pictures I've seen, some of the input shafts were showing wear, indicating that it is as soft as, or softer than the clutch disk. After machining it would have to be hardened anyway, so going slightly harder than the O.E.M wouldn't be a problem at all. I can also have the hardness tested to see what I was from BMW. 4340 was my thought, and shouldn't affect the cost much at all (over 4140) The 5mm (.196") that the shaft was lengthened would be easy as well. I'm going to see about progressing with purchasing the stock input shaft and clutch and going from there. My goal would be a shaft from 300-500 but I am not promising anything.

*#If anyone has pulled out the stock shaft (worn or not) and a clutch disk, and has it still I can most certainly use that to work on. I"ll pay S&H to TX and return them when I've got measurements#*

That would also keep R&D costs down. I'm not going to do this to make money, I'd really like the community to have a solution to a daunting problem that faces us all at one point or another.. (My ownership of the early 02 model year causes me to be more than inclined to find a suitable replacement)

You guys are, what, talking about custom machining an input shaft to be sure to get one that won't fail ? Are the stock ones that bad ? You could also run the hardness test on a new BMW unit and compare it to the reading on the clutch plate. Did any of you see a post on ADVRider where the guy pulled the final drive and transmission as a unit ? I wish I could find that post again. Those guys treat this as an irritating weekend job. I wish I was that good.

[MikeCam]

What number of the BMW's produced since the introduction of the [Oilhead- 1994] [1150 series - 2001] have a documented spline failure? How many out of the total production? What are the operators' profiles for style of use? Is there a particular time frame, batch, sequence of production, region of the world, condition of assembly, etc ?

Boxermania has done a good first order analysis of the metal part failure mode but still needs more data to complete a second and third order analysis. Meanwhile, an absence of data indicating the scope of the problem in real failures prevents one concluding if a problem exists in the design, engineering, parts supply chain, final assembly, transport, operation, misuse or at all. If the total spline failures are less than [5%] [3%] [1.5%] then is it a problem or a range of performance. Repeated anecdotal evidence does more to fuel hysteria than to complete any of those tasks.

My tires keep wearing out. Damn, I wish BMW had better tires.

[Buckster]

Thanks, Mike.

[boxermania]

Lobo 1625

I don't know if you read my post on the subject. I have resurfaced it and brought it to the top of the stack. I think that we should colaborate on the issue, for the following reasons:

We are knowledgeable of the subject matter
We are reasonably close
We can put our heads together, do a root cause on a donor bike and proceed with corrective action.
I'll be willing to put forth some seed money so we can get to the bottom of the issue.

To keep the flame going, I can make available to you the used parts that Rifton, so kindly sent me as the basis for my report. I must forewarn you that there are more issues than hardness and length....read my post if you haven't done so.....look closely at the pics and draw your own conclussions.

I still maintain that there is an angular missalignment issue and we would have to indicate all the vertical planes, engine case, crank flange.....all the way to the tranny case and input shaft.

What do you say.....do we make a go at this? If you are game, send me a pm with your information and a phone and I will send you the parts.......

[Lobo1625]

Boxermania,
PM sent. With parts in hand I'll be able to gather some more data to add to the ever growing knowledge pool here. I'll make sure to keep the forum updated with progress and anything else learned.

I must say, one thing that that does bother me is the poll results. With just over 42 votes the results are not what I would have imagined. With 40% of the votes, fixing the bike would be first. Second with almost 1/4 (23%) of the votes was those members indicating they would never buy a BMW again. This is quite disheartening from a brand with such a loyal following and reliable past. I must say I'm slightly influenced by my father's 1980 R100T and the durability/longevity of that bike I grew up with. I can no blame one person who would be soured by a failure, as a BMW is not purchased to be a 'throw away' bike when something fails. I understand that this issue has popped up a few times with a few members but is not a common failure. HOWEVER the fact that this is a failure at all is not what we expect from BMW.

A question to those of you who voted, if a replacement part or fix was available to remove the clutch splines as a cause of failure, would you change your mind? I know that many of us may not ever experience a failure, but there's no way to tell as the bikes age and mileage increases.

I agree with MikeCam completely that more research is needed to figure out what production numbers were for these bikes, and what % has experienced a failure. Not knowing the riders styles for those who have had failures is also a data point that we need. I am by no means trying to create hysteria or paranoia, but to help work on a solution to what appears to be an impending problem.

[boxermania]

Lobo 1625

Personally I think the poll responses represent not a basic dislike with the product, but the conglomeration of the small and large issues that make ownership of the brand expensive to repair and of dubious reliability for those who have a high dependence on it.

Let me explain:

For the most part the Boxer riders are far more adventurous than most other riders and as such depend on the supposed reliability of the brand. Now if we discount the little problems, such as surging, tight nylon ties cutting wires, cost of spares and service, and in some instances poor dealer attitude.

Along the big ticket items, we have, the dreaded clutch spline failure, rear bearing failure, slave cylinder failure and ABS failure, along with BMW’s attitude in regards to the major failures, that eventually will take it’s toll on the most stout supporter.

Even though my mount was always in a state of flux, because I wanted it that way and was never afflicted by any of the common ills, I would say that after some encounters of the third kind, I would also be stretched to the limit.

Last but not least and as a point of comparison. I always kept two bikes, most recently it was the 02’ R1150R and a 98’ Suzuki Bandit 1200S and spent the same time (operational miles) with both. In all fairness, I never had an issue with the Bandit in the 8 years of ownership other than one battery and tires as major expenses. Ditto for the R, during 5 years of ownership, other than tires and battery as well. Although, they have been by far the best bikes I have ever owned, I have to say, in all confidence, that I found the Bandit, IMO, a better all around bike.

So in closing, I can understand why some users have had their fill…..

[Capt. Blackadder]

I might fix it myself, then sell the bike, and never again buy a BMW, at least not with an automotive-style clutch. I might also just sell the bike outright in its failed state, at a suitable discount, and buy another bike to take its place. My bike suffered a burnt exhaust valve at the end of January and now, towards the end of April, it's still not completely right. So I'm not all too keen on spending another several months fixing a spline failure. I simply don't have the time or the inclination.

A spline failure, to me, is inexcusable. I understand that it's a machine and that machines sometimes fail, but this should be unheard of. You have to take half the bike apart to fix this, and driveline systems like these have been around for, what, a century now? When was the last time you heard a car driveline fail this way? Why on earth would you not design it to be absolutely bulletproof, both the metallurgy part of it and the assembly process? For what possible reason does the input shaft not reach all the way through the clutch splines, making use of the entire contact area? This whole thing just totally baffles me.

Ok, rant off.

[sweatmark]

Second with almost 1/4 (23%) of the votes was those members indicating they would never buy a BMW again. This is quite disheartening from a brand with such a loyal following and reliable past... HOWEVER the fact that this is a failure at all is not what we expect from BMW.

Good statement. Goes to the heart of the matter for me. I've always figured that paying a premium is OK for a vehicle that is carefully engineered and over-built, plus the notion that BMWs are underpowered & understressed compared to competitive products should mean they will last a long time. Long service life / premium price = competitive cost of ownership.

Frankly, data re: percentage of units suffering spline failures, and any relevance of riding style, are irrelevant to the BMW Motorrad customer segment: this mechanical failure should not happen to a carefully engineered machine, especially when the automobile application of clutch/transmission splines has millions of problem-free installations. And we're not talking hooligan riders dropping the clutch during burnouts or "run whatcha brung" Saturday nights at the drag strip; to the contrary, the riders of these R1150* bikes (including yours truly) are statistically* older, fatter, more conservative (at least WRT riding style) and better-educated than the general motopopulation, all of which should translate into respectful drivetrain operation.

Concern does not equal hysteria. The fact that spline failure does occur is indisputable, based on documented problems for R1150GS, -RT, and -R bikes. This is a bottom line cost of ownership issue: there's additional cost associated with whatever PM might be needed to prevent spine failure, plus parts & labor to fix failed or damaged splines, and finally, what's the opportunity cost of a ruined vacation week caused by mechanical failure while out on the road?

sweatmark (2 R1150Rs = 2 clutches, 2 transmission input shafts)