What is BMW waiting for after Toyota Recalls ?

[fj_pastor]

Hello,

I am just wondering how long would it take to BMW to hold public opinion pressure on the known
and fixable problems on our bike:
- Splines
- Wire harness
- Faulty ABS

I suggest some laywer to prepare a draft letter and submit it to BMW and the press
to see how it holds.

Please remember Toyota is recalling cars with manufacturing date older than 2002 !

Best regards

[jcridge]

Anyone knows of a fellow 1100 / 1150 rider who held their breathe waiting for an answer and subsequently died as a direct result of held breathe?

Until it results in multiple injuries and or fatilities, I doubt you'll see anything from the NTSA

[WorkinMan]

The only way you will see what's happening to Toyota happen to BMW is if our government happens to buy two very large motorcycle companies who are in direct competition with BMW.

[boxermania]

It's very difficult to overturn "Teutonic Arrogance".......

[wncbmw]

The only way you will see what's happening to Toyota happen to BMW is if our government happens to buy two very large motorcycle companies who are in direct competition with BMW.

Beat me too it!

[MikeCam]

What facts support the suggestions that your issues are endemic and require a recall?

[fj_pastor]

For models 1150, we can make a search in the message board an will find:

- Abs failure at low speed in bumpy road (exactly as Toyota)
- Brake failure on brake-assisted bikes
- Wire harness too tight -> failure while driving (including a bike burned )
- Quick disconnec FIY connecters falling apart
- The already documented spline failure due a the misalignment of the motor-to transmission

On the positive side, I still suggest someone writing a letter in order to be sumbmitted by the highest
number of BMW drivers in order to press for a solution for the above mentioned points

Best regards

[MikeCam]

Nice anecdotal reply. Numbers? Failure mode analysis? Which of those meet NHTSB standards for an investigation? Which reach the threshold for a recall?

The ABS performance data suggest a flaw in the electronic interface and power supply, otherwise all testing (including the Euro Safety board tests) indicates a design characteristic that is within acceptable manufacturing and safety limits for European roads. No known US tests or data (as opposed to demonstrations, stories, and emotional demands).

The clutch hub and transmission input shaft interface failures are the most troubling, but it is wrong to say it is caused by a mis-alignment of the housing. That idea has been debated, measured, and found to be indeterminate among many BMW independent evaluators who do the real work rather than the talk. My understanding of the issue is that fewer than 0.01% (yes %) or perhaps 1 in 4000 have developed this issue. Fewer still have been properly evaluated for failure mode. Among the candidate failure modes are: 1) mis-alignment of the housing; 2) soft metals; 3) poorly designed and fabricated spline depth and angles; 4) failure to re-design the components when moving from the 5 speed transmission to the 6 speed transmission resulting in normal operating parameters exceeding the design strength (my favorite); 6) operator induced failures. No way can anybody responsibly determine which is what with the public information available today.

The wire harness assembly (too tight wire ties) is the subject of a tech bulletin. So those availing themselves of BMW service get it done. Those availing themselves of DITY can do it themselves.

The QD fuel line connectors are also subject to a Tech Bulletin. Same as before.

So which demand, require, deserve, need, or have-to-have a recall?

It is my opinion, supported by investigation, that BMW AG decided to save expense on manufacturing processes and assembly costs by moving to less expensive, non-proven subsidiary suppliers and cheaper to pay East European workers in order to improve shareholder value. The intangible results might have paid off - rising share value. Meanwhile the perceived quality issues and the severe customer feedback issues might cost the company overall in revenues, goodwill, and ultimately value. Additionally, BMW AG squeezed their international dealer/distributor network with more requirements and lower subsidized support for warranty and repair costs. In BMW NA this resulted in a likely decrease in the willingness to accept unproven failures under warranty and a squeeze that flows to the user. Again, over time (1999-2007 for instance) this has hurt rather than helped the overall image. But it still doesn't meet the requirements for a recall.

You can make money as a lawyer accepting weak cases for litigation and hoping for a settlement rather than the defendant accepting discovery processes and the potential emotionally charged court case decided by a non-technically competent jury. That would be a better approach than a NHTSB recall for the lawyer.

[Airman]

I don't really see any hope at all that BMW will suddenly change course and start repairing known problems with BMW motorcycles. In order to get the attention of the manufacturer, or the government agencies responsible for safety, people have to die, The more people that die, the better, because they won't even glance at the problem unless faced with massive litigation. If scores of riders had been burned to death by those cheap FI clamps and the fuel disconnects, probably BMW would have fixed it years ago. I wouldn't be surprised to find they were still installing those same parts on new bikes and overtightening the harness clamps. Toyota knew there was a problem with those cruise controls 8 years ago, but continued to ignore the problem, saying it was the floor mats, or wait....maybe it's actually the customers fault ! This isn't just Toyota or BMW's problem, all big companies think like that. If you want to enjoy a good read on the subject, try the Bridgestone/Firestone case with Ford over those tires on the Explorer. Pretty much the same thing happened. The roadways were littlered with blown tires and flipped over Explorers before Ford and Firestone would admit there was a problem.

[iowabeakster]

About the spline failures:
I don't want to start a pointless argument here, especically with Mr. Cam. I agree with him. Although, I think the estimate of 1 in 4000 is optimistic.

I can think of enough folks from this board, that I need more than one hand to count failures. Considering the number of the participants on this board... 1 in 4000 seems an underestimate. I do think that it is a small percentage, but it would be pointless for me to make up a number.

Are these the results of abuse? Some seem to be, some don't.

Frankly, whatever the actual rate of failure is, I can't imagine that the bike would be recalled. The whole oilhead line would need to be recalled. The cost of redesign and installation would cost BMW everything they made on the oilheads...and a WHOLE LOT MORE. It just isn't going to happen. I accept that.

What I don't understand, is BMW's decision to not help out the small percentage of people who have had the problem. I think that is a bad move for a company that seeks to sell a "premium product" with a corresponding price tag. I love my bike, but it will probably be the only BMW I will ever buy. This is a major problem, with a major repair bill (although only suffered by a few). BMW is leaving the customers who have paid the BMW premium hung out to dry. I will skip the premium next time.

I consider the other issues very minor.

[Airman]

About the spline failures:
What I don't understand, is BMW's decision to not help out the small percentage of people who have had the problem. I think that is a bad move for a company that seeks to sell a "premium product" with a corresponding price tag. I love my bike, but it will probably be the only BMW I will ever buy. This is a major problem, with a major repair bill (although only suffered by a few). BMW is leaving the customers who have paid the BMW premium hung out to dry. I will skip the premium next time.
I consider the other issues very minor.

I agree with you here. My experience with my BMW has been quite positive. However, had I had even one major failure that was (A) expensive to fix, and (B) unresolved by BMW, I would be looking at shaft drive Hondas.
BMW has almost priced themselves out of my market in any case. It is difficult to justify paying the premium price when I see co-workers buying new ST1300's for $10 or 11k. In the case of the GS, BMW is arguably offering a bike that fills a unique role. Not so with the R or RT, so they'd better make the bike worth the money.

[boxermania]

I'm with iowabeakster on this one as well. I met Mike at the BBII in WV (2005) and found him to be sharp, funny and well informed. That being said, Mike has always taken the high road regarding the typical nuances that accompany the oilheads as merely things to expect.

From my perspective and based on everything that has been posted on this board or contributed from other boards I do have to disagree with Mike specially with the 1/4000 failures that he has stood by and has never provided supporting documentation.

No, this is not a personal attack, the oilheads have many idiosyncrasies that are unbecoming of the BMW touted reputation and premium cost. The end user should not bear the outcome of who BMW chooses as suppliers, design or engineering goals. In this case BMW has missed the mark by a significant margin.

If I choose to sponsor a questionable product shame on me, if the OEM fails to recognize and address product shortcomings, shame on them.

[The Velvet Monkey]

I agree with you here. My experience with my BMW has been quite positive. However, had I had even one major failure that was (A) expensive to fix, and (B) unresolved by BMW, I would be looking at shaft drive Hondas.
BMW has almost priced themselves out of my market in any case. It is difficult to justify paying the premium price when I see co-workers buying new ST1300's for $10 or 11k. In the case of the GS, BMW is arguably offering a bike that fills a unique role. Not so with the R or RT, so they'd better make the bike worth the money.

First, I'd like to say that I've had a few issues with my BMW--but I've never owned a car or truck (and I've owned a few) that didn't--and BMW took care of me without question. And, I've also ridden the ST1300. I found it well made, an excellent bike, but the functional equivalent of the Honda Accord. Dead reliable, and if that is the primary thing you want out of a motorcycle, it's your bike.

Me on the otherhand, I'd rather take the bus.

I like what I call "character" bikes (or cars, or women, or whatever). I do a lengthy commute on my R every day and it spices up the program and makes less about just getting there.

I bought my R for the not so much for the reliability but for it's Beemerness. I'm also riding a Guzzi Griso, and while it's a bike that has had it's fair share of time in the shop (thankfully under warranty, but nothing major), it's also about the greatest bike I've ever ridden. The thing is an absolute gas.

If you don't want a "character" bike, don't by a BMW. There are a lot of great Japanese brands that will build you a machine at a reasonable price that you can beat to death without so much as a squeak. I'm just glad they're still building BMWs, Guzzi's, KTMs, Harleys, Aprillias, etc.

[AndyRR]

I consider every BMW model that starts with "R1150" fatally flawed. Show me one that has full engagement between the clutch and the input shaft of the transmission. That was a huge screw up that BMW has long ignored. We can have endless discussions debating wether it's an angular or linear displacement, but if it was put together right, we wouldn't be talking about it.

There will be no recall because the failure mode is sudden loss of GO, very much unlike Toyota's recent troubles. No known deaths have resulted.
Even the bikes with higher mileage and no failure have shown that the engagement is all wrong.

Ford Festiva's (a favorite rally race car) and Saab 9000s have the same transmission shaft diameter and number of teeth with no talk of failures. (I can't claim that there weren't any, but if a heavy Saab 9000 can't spin a 3/4" 17 tooth spline in it's hub, why can we?)

The R1200R looks to be an OK bike with no early failures, but I may have forever lost faith in the marque. They may have made a great bike with the S1000RR, but if BMW wants to continue their reputation for reliable bikes they need to TAKE CARE OF THEIR CURRENT CUSTOMERS!

There is a part of me that loves owning a bike with a spinning prop and being part of the long history of the R bikes. Perhaps the R1150s were only a speedbump in that proud tradition, but that's no consolidation to those that have bad ones.

Personally, I'm saving my money for a Multistrada. Crazy as it may sound, I think the Italians have overtaken the Germans in reliability and most definately in performance.

[WorkinMan]

I consider every BMW model that starts with "R1150" fatally flawed. Show me one that has full engagement between the clutch and the input shaft of the transmission. That was a huge screw up that BMW has long ignored. We can have endless discussions debating wether it's an angular or linear displacement, but if it was put together right, we wouldn't be talking about it.

There will be no recall because the failure mode is sudden loss of GO, very much unlike Toyota's recent troubles. No known deaths have resulted.
Even the bikes with higher mileage and no failure have shown that the engagement is all wrong.

Ford Festiva's (a favorite rally race car) and Saab 9000s have the same transmission shaft diameter and number of teeth with no talk of failures. (I can't claim that there weren't any, but if a heavy Saab 9000 can't spin a 3/4" 17 tooth spline in it's hub, why can we?)

The R1200R looks to be an OK bike with no early failures, but I may have forever lost faith in the marque. They may have made a great bike with the S1000RR, but if BMW wants to continue their reputation for reliable bikes they need to TAKE CARE OF THEIR CURRENT CUSTOMERS!

There is a part of me that loves owning a bike with a spinning prop and being part of the long history of the R bikes. Perhaps the R1150s were only a speedbump in that proud tradition, but that's no consolidation to those that have bad ones.

Personally, I'm saving my money for a Multistrada. Crazy as it may sound, I think the Italians have overtaken the Germans in reliability and most definately in performance.

I owned a Ducati several years ago, and if you think BMW has ignored your concerns, you ain't seen NOTHIN till you purchase a Ducati. Been there, done that, and I'll take my chances with a spline failure, thank you very much. They are absolutely beautiful bikes, and nothing sounds better, but if you have ANY problems whatsoever, you're in for the ride of your life. I had ONE small problem (under warranty) with my 900SS and after I had it fixed (six weeks and two Ducati dealerships later) I sold it. My BMW is not under warranty, and hopefully I won't have any major problems with it. I'm knocking on wood as we speak, and my fingers are crossed. But if I did have problems with it, I would have to be DRAGGED kicking and screaming back into a Ducati dealership. And only then if there were no decent options. Fortunately there are other options.