Cool Weather & Rain Tires

[TJVV47]

Greetings All:

I'm interested in the groups recommendations specifically as they relate to cool weather rain tires. I've been reading through threads on preferred tire set-ups and it seems contributors commonly offer something like "I don't ride much in the rain, but...". We'll I'm specifically interested in a tire that's going to inspire a little confidence in cool/cold weather & rainy conditions. I'm in the Pacific NW, and there's going to be plenty of days over the Winter where the temps will remain substantially above freezing, while accompanied by a near never ending mist, drizzle, and rain.

I've put just shy of 10k on a pair of Michelin Pilot Roads this season, and they've been a nice distance tire. That said, I've found them leaving a bit to be desired under more aggressive cornering and in wet weather.

Does anyone have specific tire recommendations for the cool and wet conditions I've got to look forward to this winter?
Cheers,
Tim

[omg1010]

Hi Tim,

the component (in modern tires) responsible for performance in wet/colder conditions is Silica. Comparative tests by some motorcycle magazines in Germany have shown that the best allround tires with supreme wet performance are the Michelin Pilot Road 2 and the Metzeler Roadtec Interact Z8. If wet/cold rideability is more important than durability go for a softer tire like the Michelin Pilot Power 2CT or the new Michelin Pilot Pure.

I have made best experience with my Pilot Road 2 even in wet/cold conditions and I can only recommend this tire. I have no shares in Michelin and this is my personal opinion.

Best regards
Oliver

[Xdot]

I'm in the Pacific NW, and there's going to be plenty of days over the Winter where the temps will remain substantially above freezing, while accompanied by a near never ending mist, drizzle, and rain.

I used to live in Seattle and I've found Huntsville, Alabama to be just as bad so I'll be following this thread closely. Thanks for a great topic, and thanks Oliver, for a great reply.

Question: can I have the current tires removed (Metzler Z6 in good shape) and another set put on, then switch back in the spring, with no deleterious effects on the tires?

[wncbmw]

My experience with the Metzeler Z6, Pirelli Stradas (same tire basically) and current Michelin PR2 are that they are all pretty equal. I ride year round here and do ride in the rain as required. They all handle the curves better than me and I have never noticed any excessive drama while riding in the rain. I don't think you can go wrong with any of those.

A more aggressive, stickier tire would probably not improve your rain performance significantly but would certainly hit your wallet! They will go away lots faster!

[Xdot]

My experience with the Metzeler Z6, Pirelli Stradas (same tire basically) and current Michelin PR2 are that they are all pretty equal. I ride year round here and do ride in the rain as required. They all handle the curves better than me and I have never noticed any excessive drama while riding in the rain. I don't think you can go wrong with any of those.

Which brings up another question for me with which I have ZERO experience answering: What kind of performance decrease can I expect to see in rain? To clarify, dry tires and dry pavement have a particular coefficient of static friction. Call it, u_dry. It is based on the tire compound, tire pressure, road surface roughness, and road surface material. For the sake of argument let's just assume we're talking about the same tire at the same pressure over identical road surface. My question is, how does u_wet compare to u_dry? How much lower can I expect it to be? Or, is it actually lower at all or is the reduced friction in wet conditions created by hydro or even micro-hydroplaning? Can anyone help me understand this as I'm not experienced in riding in wet conditions and really freeze up when cornering if the road is even damp. I don't think this hijacks the thread over much since it is a very closely related subject. If it does, we can always start another one.

John

[riceburner]

My experience with the Metzeler Z6, Pirelli Stradas (same tire basically) and current Michelin PR2 are that they are all pretty equal. I ride year round here and do ride in the rain as required. They all handle the curves better than me and I have never noticed any excessive drama while riding in the rain. I don't think you can go wrong with any of those.

Which brings up another question for me with which I have ZERO experience answering: What kind of performance decrease can I expect to see in rain? To clarify, dry tires and dry pavement have a particular coefficient of static friction. Call it, u_dry. It is based on the tire compound, tire pressure, road surface roughness, and road surface material. For the sake of argument let's just assume we're talking about the same tire at the same pressure over identical road surface. My question is, how does u_wet compare to u_dry? How much lower can I expect it to be? Or, is it actually lower at all or is the reduced friction in wet conditions created by hydro or even micro-hydroplaning? Can anyone help me understand this as I'm not experienced in riding in wet conditions and really freeze up when cornering if the road is even damp. I don't think this hijacks the thread over much since it is a very closely related subject. If it does, we can always start another one.

John

to be utterly honest - it's mostly psychological.

modern tyres are FAR better than most riders in normal road riding situations, caveat: unless you act like a fool and push them too much - eg by ham-fisted actions. Stay smooth in your control actions (smooth braking, smooth turn in, smooth throttle) and you'll be fine.

You WILL have a decrease in the effectiveness of emergency braking, so increase your following distances, and keep your observations up, but like I say - stay smooth and you'll be ok.

[jcridge]

John,

Do not over complicate the question, I’m an engineer by trade and appreciate where you’re going with this, but damn man.
This is my laymans view of riding in the rain;
Wet performance in part will be improved as you will ride more cautiously, roll on the throttle slower, reduce your top speed. Basically all the things you would do if you wanted to get the best possible MPG on any given day.
Error on the slow side when taking corners at intersections, its not the rain, its the oil and road paint that will get you, and there is not a tire compound on the planet that will work on that combination.
The other side of the performance coin is you will have reduced grip ( hydroplanning), less scrubing and a cooler tread, which all point to increased tread life, but increasing your chances of losing the thing that matters most to us ( not the wife) the grip on the pavement...
As you ride more in the rain, you will understand your limitations and the bikes limitations. Fishtailing and occasional rear wheel slide is all part of riding in the rain. The new dual compounds look to me as if the manufactures are trying to address many things with one tire. With regards to RPII's they seem to have a good compound for all around riding.

Now the real question should be "which tires perform the best under the conditions you want to ride". If you are talking rain tires for track days, then that’s a whole different ballgame then if you are looking for tires that will perform adequately on the streets with oil, tar, gravel and a host of other impurities that make riding in the rain so much fun.

I have no issues with my current Road Attacks or the Z6's in the rain; actually I think RA's are the best so far in the rain. Although my next set of tire will be RPII’s.


John

[Xdot]

Do not over complicate the question, I’m an engineer by trade and appreciate where you’re going with this, but damn man.

I'm an engineer too.

[harveyrawn]

I remember some wet/dry tire tests that Continental conducted in Germany many years ago. They found that their tires performed appreciatively the same under both conditions. In other words, rain alone did not affect traction.

Here in Southern California, a larger concern are the oils that wash up out of grooves on roads that haven't seen rain for a while. Once they wash off in a day or two of rain, modern tires provide fully acceptable traction on the pavement.

[wncbmw]

Well - all you engineers have answered the question already but as usual at work, let the engineering tech (me!) make the engineer's advice simple and useful!

Actually, the previous posts are pretty good advice. In ideal conditions, the difference between dry and wet traction with a good tire is probably beyond most of our riding abilities. However, we seldom ride in ideal conditions! Around here, if it hasn't rained for a while, I take it easy for the first hour of a rain because all the oil and diesel fuel is coming to the surface. After it has been washed by the rain for a while, the asphalt gets better.

Also, avoid sharp turns on the paint stripes, turning lane arrows, pedestrian crosswalk markers, etc. in the rain. Those things are slick in the rain!

For the most part, it just means acting like you have some sense and don't be too aggressive in the rain. I no doubt have thousands of miles in the rain, some hard enough cars were stopping, and only a few times (related to the above areas of caution) felt any loss of traction.

Of course, I have hit diesel fuel and oil in perfectly dry conditions and nearly lost it, so all the those precautions are probably good advice anyway!

[omg1010]

I ain't no engineer! But my butt is enginious

Off course, all depends on the personal riding style. For me the MPR 2 lasts between 8 and 10 000 kms. The Roadtec Z6 or Z8 should be pretty much the same. The PIPO or the PIPU will probably be down after 5-6000 kms. Usually we folks apply a less aggressive riding style in wet conditions and the more wet-ride you have the less wear you will experience.

Simple as that. The Michelins are said to have supreme wet performance over other tires due to their high silica component. But other manufacturers are getting better (namely Metzeler). German engineers I suppose ...

Best regards and safe riding!
Oliver

[jcridge]

Well - all you engineers have answered the question already but as usual at work, let the engineering tech (me!) make the engineer's advice simple and useful!

Just a few years ago I too was getting overtime as a tech, but now its salary and a few perks .... Surfing at lunch is one of them.

You are confusing engineers with scientist ( the people you work with that are really smart, but not too bright).

[TJVV47]

Thanks for the thoughts gentlemen!

When I posted I wasn't expecting to field responses for the dry weather appreciated standards like the Metzeler Z6's & Michelin PR2. I'm a little surprised these same dry weather, longer wearing road warriors also rule the rain. Don't take me as disappointed, but rather pleasantly impressed with their range of application and apparent rider appreciation.

I've got some other feelers out on the topic, and will be sure to summarize for the group as the data collection accumulates.
Cheers,
Tim

[riceburner]

Thanks for the thoughts gentlemen!

When I posted I wasn't expecting to field responses for the dry weather appreciated standards like the Metzeler Z6's & Michelin PR2. I'm a little surprised these same dry weather, longer wearing road warriors also rule the rain. Don't take me as disappointed, but rather pleasantly impressed with their range of application and apparent rider appreciation.

I've got some other feelers out on the topic, and will be sure to summarize for the group as the data collection accumulates.
Cheers,
Tim

Tyres like the Z6/PR2 are "Sport Touring" tyres (as opposed to out and out Sport or Race tyres). Thus the manufacturers (based in Europe, where it rains a fair bit. ) know that the tyres will be used in the rain, and so make the tyres capable of dealing with all weather conditions (within certain parameters).

I still maintain it's mostly down to the rider though..... I've commuted on ex-race tyres (Michelin Power Race - I have a friend who raced in a National series on them, and her wheel sizes were the same as mine. ) before now in downpours and not had any issues (but then of course, I didn't push the tyres beyond their capabilities. )